The Senedd met in the Chamber and by video-conference at 13:30 with the Llywydd (Elin Jones) in the Chair.

1. Questions to the First Minister

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Good afternoon and welcome to this afternoon's Plenary meeting. The first item this afternoon will be questions to the First Minister, and the first question is from Hefin David.

Coal Tips

Hefin David AC: 1. What measures is the Welsh Government taking to safely restore coal tips in Caerphilly? OQ60191

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, I thank Hefin David for the question. We are implementing an inspection and maintenance programme and modernising the legislative framework. That's the basis of our programme for securing coal tip safety in Caerphilly and across Wales.

Hefin David AC: Diolch, Prif Weinidog. In my constituency, there are three category D coal tips that are local authority owned, which are Bedwas in Trethomas, Bedwas colliery central north and Bedwas colliery north. They're categorised as the highest risk. They're not at risk of any imminent danger, but they do need frequent inspection, and the local authority's assured me that's happening. As I said, I need to stress that there are no imminent safety concerns, but Caerphilly council officers have formed a key part of the Welsh Government-led coal tip safety advisory technical group, which was established to support the review of the Mines and Quarries (Tips) Act 1969, in partnership with the Law Commission. What can the Welsh Government's forthcoming legislation do to support local authorities to remediate and restore at-risk coal tips? And also, has the Welsh Government considered working with private firms who may give the public sector an advantage in remediating at a much lower cost?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, I thank Hefin David for those further points. He's right, of course, that Caerphilly has a particular concentration of disused coal tips. We have 40 per cent of all the disused coal tips in the United Kingdom here in Wales—over 2,500 of them—and we know a great deal more about them as a result of the work of the groups to which the Member referred. And I'm really grateful for the help of the officers of Caerphilly council in helping us to prepare for the disused tip safety Bill, which will come in front of the Senedd next year. As a result of all that work, there is now a much more rigorous programme of tip safety inspections. The Coal Authority has carried out 92 winter coal tip inspections already since it started work on 9 October, and that will include tips in the Caerphilly constituency. There are two different sets of things, Llywydd, that we are doing. The Bill will set up a world-first new system of oversight of disused tips here in Wales, making the system fit for an era of climate change. Alongside that, and not dependent upon the Bill itself, we go on investing £44.4 million provided to local authorities for the maintenance and remediation of coal tips in Wales. We're focusing on the skills gap—that's something we learnt from our local authority colleagues, that you need to build up the capacity of local authorities for the inspection and the remediation of those coal tips—and we're using new technology for the monitoring and inspection of the 70 highest rated tips in Wales. That will make sure that, in the future, we're able to take advantage of those new technological possibilities that will help to keep communities safe.
As to the involvement of private sector companies in tip remediation, we don'thave any objection, of course, to that. They would have to follow the same processes as any other organisation seeking to carry out remediation work, and that normally involves a planning application to the local authority, to make sure that whatever work is planned will genuinely contribute to the improvement of the area, because tip remediation brings with it economic opportunities as well as environmental opportunities, and the system is in place to make sure that those advantages can be gathered for local communities.

Natasha Asghar AS: First Minister, thank you so much for that answer. I was listening very carefully to what you were saying to the Member. You clearly read my mind, because I was going to start by saying that there are nearly 2,500 coal tips across Wales, and I'm sure that we can all remember the truly shocking events in Tylorstown during storm Dennis. Since then, communities up and down the country living near coal tips have been living in fear. The Welsh Government has received millions of pounds from the UK Government to tackle the many disused coal tips that we have, yet we're still waiting for robust action to be taken, despite a review into disused coal tip legislation starting three years ago. First Minister, with winter looming, the sense of fear and anxiety within communities is going to be greatly heightened, so when can we expect to see the Welsh Government finally take action and bring forward coal tip safety legislation here in the Welsh Parliament?

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, that legislation will come in front of the Senedd next year. It will go broader than coal tip safety because it will look at the many other forms of disused tips that, unfortunately, are characteristic of Wales's participation in the industrial revolution, and, in the case of metal mines, going back many centuries prior to that as well. The Welsh Government has not, Llywydd, received millions of pounds from the UK Government for remediation—nothing of the sort. In fact, we remain in discussions with the UK Government about the contribution that we believe should rightly come to Wales for what is a legacy industry. The difficulties that we are having to put right well predate devolution, and the statement of funding policy, I think, is clear that when liabilities arise post devolution that are rooted in pre-devolution circumstances, the UK Government continues to have a responsibility to contribute to the funding of those liabilities. We've made no—no—progress at all with the UK Government with that argument so far, but we certainly continue to make it.

Delyth Jewell AC: The coal tips in our valleys are a daily visual reminder of how we've been exploited, how our communities often paid a deadly price for coal, and, while the wealth was shipped straight out of these shores, the muck and the dirt was dumped on our hillsides to blot our skylines. But they are also in people's eyelines, and the psychological toll of worrying about tips slipping in heavy rain weighs heavily on lots of people. Prif Weinidog, many tips aren't posing any risk of slipping and they are only an eyesore, but my main concern is about the tips that actually are at risk of even partial collapse. Now, I know we're expecting a statement next week that will, I trust, provide an update on what work is already under way to catalogue and analyse any risk posed by tips slipping. That's vitally important, and there's a cost to it. Can you tell me, please, what stage your Government has reached in discussions with the UK Government about them paying towards righting this wrong that, as you say, was made decades before devolution began? These coal tips are a legacy of the negligence and disdain of Westminster Governments for our valleys. They need to pay to clear them.

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, I certainly agree with Delyth Jewell, Llywydd, that the history of Wales is one of the exploitation of our natural resources, where not only coal was extracted but wealth was extracted and taken far beyond the shores of Wales, leaving the communities who produced that wealth behind to deal with the consequences. That is why the Member is absolutely right, Llywydd, that there is an obligation on the UK Government to assist in putting right the wrongs of the past. We don't expect them to do it alone; the Welsh Government is already, as I said, making available £44.4 million for these purposes. What we look to the Treasury to agree is a long-term programme, funded over a decade. We're not expecting huge amounts of money in any one year, but cumulatively, over a decade, we could begin with those tips where the risk is greatest, and then progressively work our way down that list—the list, as I said, is in a much, much better state than it was before the Tylorstown incident, to which Natasha Asghar referred—and then to turn those things, which today loom over communities and do create fear in the lives of people who live nearby, into things that can be assets to them.

Floods

Russell George AC: 2. How is the Welsh Government supporting work to mitigate local flooding in mid Wales? OQ60194

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank Russell George, Llywydd, for that. We have provided over £75 million for flood risk management activity across Wales in this financial year, with £5.25 million in revenue and £12 million in capital funding available to all lead local flood authorities, including those in mid Wales.

Russell George AC: Thank you, First Minister, for your answer. Of course, one of the significant areas to help mitigate flooding in mid Wales is the better management of the Clywedog and Vyrnwy reservoirs. It would not altogether resolve issues, but it would in large part. Now, I know that Natural Resources Wales have been involved with work in regard to looking at the possibility of enhancing Clywedog to have greater capacity in the winter months. So, there's that issue, and also there's the issue of examining the draw-down times to allow water to be drawn down to then allow for less of an opportunity for there to be flooding incidents across mid Wales. To me, it's important that agencies on both sides of the border work together—NRW and the Environment Agency England, and also the UK and Welsh Governments as well, because any works that are done will benefit mid Wales and also other areas downstream in England as well. So, I hope, First Minister, you can confirm that both NRW and you are working with counterparts across the border and, where there is opportunity, of course, for funding from the Environment Agency to help resilience work in mid Wales to help mitigate flooding as well.

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, I thank Russell George for that, and I know that he's got a long-standing interest in the management of the Clywedog and the Vyrnwy reservoirs. I know that he raised exactly some of the points he has raised today back during the flooding in 2020. So, let me take the two issues that he raised in turn. I continue to believe that there is an issue to do with drawing water off from those reservoirs, and it is understandable that people further down believe that, at times of high rainfall, if water is being discharged from the dams, then it adds to flood risk in those communities. And it does seem to me that, with the sophistication of modern forecasting, more should be done to prepare for high rainfall events. The water should be discharged not after the rainfall event but before it in order to create that extra capacity in Clywedog and in Vyrnwy. And I don't think there is good enough evidence yet that the Environment Agency, who in the end is responsible for that aspect of the reservoirs, is doing enough to make sure that things are prepared ahead of bad weather rather than responding to bad weather when it happens.
As to enhancing the capacity of the reservoirs, I read from time to time speculation rather than anything more definite about plans to raise the level of the dam so that it could safely contain more water. Quite certainly, I would expect NRW to be involved in any such discussions. There are issues. I remember Adam Price raising these with me specifically about those reservoirs, about where that water would then go and how we can make sure that Welsh interests are properly protected were there to be plans for increasing the capacity of the reservoirs and to make use of the water collected for other communities outside Wales. I have no difficulty with that, provided that Welsh resources are properly recognised and, where necessary, rewarded.

Jane Dodds AS: Good afternoon, First Minister. Thank you to Russell George for raising this issue. Residents across mid Wales, including, for me, residents in Presteigne, in Llanfechain, in Abercraf, have raised concerns around flooding in their areas, and we must all recognise the role that the climate emergency plays in flooding, and our role, in fact, sadly in accelerating that. NRW and their staff have done an amazing job across storm Babet and storm Ciarán in terms of managing and responding to emergencies. But, one of the issues that is raised by NRW is their resourcing. We know that they are around 25 per cent below what would be the optimal level. So, I just wondered what the First Minister is doing in order to ensure that NRW and their fantastic staff have the resources that they need in order to manage flooding, not just in mid and west Wales, but across Wales. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Mark Drakeford AC: Can I begin by thanking Jane Dodds for recognising the extraordinary efforts that NRW staff make, not just in the most recent storms, but whenever communities are at risk. These are the individuals that you see out there on the ground clearing stuff, making sure culverts are working and so on, and they were working very hard indeed in the last week or so, when these recent storms have taken place. And I thank Jane Dodds as well for recognising that the investment that has been put in through NRW has prevented flooding. We're focused, quite rightly, on where the worst impacts are felt—and there were impacts felt in Powys and in other parts of Wales in the two recent storms—but NRW estimate that over 1,000 properties didn't flood in those storms because of the investment that they have been able to put in place. All public services in Wales are feeling the impact of over a decade of austerity, with less money to do all the things we need to do. The Minister has worked with NRW to look at the whole of their budget to make sure that the investments are aligned as closely as they can with the key priorities of the Welsh Government and of Welsh communities, and flood prevention—whether that is coastal flood prevention or flood prevention in rivers—is right there at the top of the list of things we know to be important.

Questions Without Notice from the Party Leaders

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Questions from party leaders now. Leader of the Conservatives, Andrew R.T. Davies.

Andrew R.T. Davies AC: Thank you, Presiding Officer. First Minister, we know from recent correspondence seen in other parts of the United Kingdom that various Governments have been required to hand over WhatsApp messages and other electronic messages that were used to convey dialogue between officials and Ministers during the COVID crisis. The UK COVID inquiry has issued to the Scottish Government a section 21 under the Inquiries Act 2005. Has the Welsh Government had a similar order put on it, and has the Welsh Government provided all electronic communication that has been requested by the COVID inquiry at a UK level?

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, we're not in receipt of such an order at this point, but that is because module 2A, which is the module that will focus on the Scottish experience, comes before module 2B—the Welsh experience—which will be examined by the inquiry, we believe, in February and into March. There is a meeting, I know, scheduled between those people who are responsible for running the inquiry and officials here that no doubt will cover ground as to what material has been disclosed to the inquiry. But I want to make sure that colleagues here know, Llywydd, that I made an early decision, together with my ministerial colleagues, that the Welsh Government would disclose all material requested by the UK COVID inquiry, including WhatsApp messages. I took a different view to the Cabinet Office, which, as you know, believed that it was for them to decide what material would be relevant to the inquiry. My view has been that it's for the inquiry to make that judgment. We release all the information we have that the inquiry requests, and then we rely on them to decide, of that vast amount of material—not all of which, I think, will be relevant to their inquiries, but I think it's better that they make that judgment. And so we provide everything that we have, we make it available to them, they decide how they can make good use of it.

Andrew R.T. Davies AC: Thank you for that answer, First Minister. Obviously, you highlighted the information that you have; one of the areas that has been looked at is the deletion of messages on electronic devices—and there was instruction given by various Governments to make sure that that wouldn't happen through the course of the COVID crisis. Are you confident that deletion mechanisms or apps were not used by Government Ministers here in Cardiff or officials, so that information was retained to give clarity and entirety over the decision-making process that was made via the WhatsApp or electronic messages on devices that were used by Welsh Government Ministers or officials?

Mark Drakeford AC: Let me make three points if I could, Llywydd. First of all, the Welsh Government did not rely on informal means of communication in order to make decisions during the COVID period. I cannot think of a stronger contrast between the way in which business was discharged inside the Welsh Government and in front of this Senedd throughout the COVID period than what we have seen in front of the inquiry in the last few days. I then want to make this distinction: as soon as we were aware that the inquiry would wish to have material disclosed to it, no instruction of any sort was issued in the Welsh Government that material should be deleted. So, as soon as we knew that the inquiry wanted something, there's no deletion beyond that point. However, during the COVID period itself, many colleagues working for the Welsh Government will have had devices with deletion instructions already on them, and those things may have remained on their phones, because at the point nobody, I think—absolutely nobody—was focused on whether those messages might be required at some future distant point. So, as soon as we knew that the inquiry was interested in it, no deletion. I cannot promise that there were people whose phones, during the COVID period, didn't have deletion arrangements in them that well predated COVID and which continued just as they normally would.

Andrew R.T. Davies AC: Thank you for that answer, First Minister. Could I just clarify, then, that, up until the point of the establishment of the COVID inquiry, it is reasonable to think that some messages would have been deleted, and it was only when the COVID inquiry indicated that they would be looking at electronic messaging, which was some time into the pandemic, that that instruction or working arrangement within the Welsh Government came into play, and that it is fair to say that in the early weeks and months that deletion of WhatsApp messages was taking place, because obviously there was an understanding that that information might not be relevant?

Mark Drakeford AC: I think the fairer way of putting it is that deletion may have taken place. I know, in my case, I've never had any deletion arrangements on the phone, because I would have no idea how to make it happen. [Laughter.] I don't use WhatsApp either.FootnoteLink What I don't want to say is that they were not some people working in the Welsh Government and working on COVID who didn't have pre-existing arrangements that continued after COVID began. But, as soon as we were aware that the inquiry would be interested in material of that sort, that was stored on phones, there was no move to delete it once we knew the inquiry would be taking an interest in it.

Correspondence from the First Minister

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Leader of Plaid Cymru, Rhun ap Iorwerth.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Thank you, Llywydd. The First Minister, like me, will have been looking forward, I'm sure, to seeing what was contained within the UK Government's legislative programme today, and, like me, he will have been disappointed.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: We witnessed in Westminster today a pretty desperate attempt to reignite the dying embers of the Conservative UK Government—using more fossil fuels to do so, of course. We saw a hardening of the Tories' climate change denying credentials, and the complete bypassing of Wales at a time when we need to see greater fairness and greater ambition for our nation. Plaid Cymru would have prioritised five Bills for this King's Speech, all designed to ease the cost-of-living crisis and lay the foundations for a more prosperous future: an affordable energy Bill to help people struggling to make ends meet; a fair funding Bill, scrapping the Barnett formula, stopping more HS2 great train robberies; a Bill to transfer justice powers, creating a system that works for Wales; a social security Bill to transform the lives of people in our most disadvantaged communities; and a Bill to bring the Crown Estate under Welsh control, creating a new wealth fund and greener, well-paid jobs. Does the Prif Weinidog agree with me that these are real priorities for Wales, whoever holds the keys to 10 Downing Street?

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, I thank Rhun ap Iorwerth, and I agree, of course. The legislative programme was put before House of Commons and House of Lords today. There is nothing in that programme that is going to make things in the lives of people here in Wales better, and it shows a Government that has no ambition for the future.

Mark Drakeford AC: The King's Speech is the thinnest of documents. I myself believe it's a clearing-of-the-decks-in-advance-of-an-election document. And Wales wasn't mentioned once in that speech. I mention that particularly, because Northern Rail was mentioned in it, and yet the much-vaunted north Wales electrification got no mention at all. As to Plaid Cymru's five-point plan—another five-point plan, Llywydd; not many weeks go by without one—then, in this case, there are a series of issues that are shared, certainly on this side of the Chamber. The devolution of the Crown Estate is the policy of the Welsh Government. Fair funding—we have argued for many, many years for a replacement of the Barnett formula with a formula based on need. And energy for the future and affordable energy is one of the great opportunities that are there for Wales in the future. So, there's much in the plan that is shared on this side of the Chamber. We will need a Labour Government, won't we, if any of this is actually to happen.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: The Prif Weinidog pours scorn over Plaid Cymru's five-point plan, as he calls it. After 24 years of Labour-run Government in Wales, somebody's got to be coming forward with some good ideas. But I'd like to focus, if I could, on the fair funding issue. The Prif Weinidog's predecessor, Carwyn Jones, said in 2017:
'Nobody can defend a situation where we have a funding formula that is over 38 years old by now, that was based on the way things were in the 1970s.'
We can say pretty confidently that funding Wales according to need would lead to a much-needed uplift in funding. There is a funding floor in place, but that was described by its creator, the Holtham commission, as just a minimal solution. So, does the Prif Weinidog agree with me that this simple principle of fair funding for Wales should be in the general election manifesto of all parties, and given that it was omitted from this King's Speech, does he think it should be in the next?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, I'm certainly not surprised to find that there's no commitment to a reform of Barnett in the current King's Speech, and, of course, the leader of Plaid Cymru is right—Joel Barnett himself disowned the Barnett formula many, many times, many years after it was first invented. I was glad to be able to negotiate with the then Chief Secretary to the Treasury something that was analogous to the Holtham floor, but that's the minimum that we need; we need a much more thoroughgoing reform of the way in which public services across the United Kingdom are funded. The money that comes to Wales should not depend upon decisions that are made entirely for circumstances in England, and that's how the Barnett formula works, as you know. What we need is a needs-based formula that guarantees that the level of service potentially available in any part of the United Kingdom is one that meets the needs of people who live in that part of the United Kingdom, and that's what a reformed approach to funding would produce.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: The way to have independent spending decisions made by Wales is to have an independent Welsh Treasury, of course, but I'm glad that the First Minister agrees with me that the UK Government should change the funding formula. But given, I assume, that he hopes the next King's Speech will be written by a Labour Prime Minister, the problem we have is a glaring one, that Labour's making no commitment to change it. It's disappointing, as I say often, that the First Minister, as the most powerful elected Labour politician in these islands, is unable to persuade his party leader at Westminster to do the right thing on this and other issues that are around fairness for Wales.
Now, back in March, Keir Starmer told Labour members that it was time for Wales to 'take back control'. That was in relation specifically to EU funding replacement, but surely the same principle would apply to another of Plaid Cymru's asks today, control of the Crown Estate. It's about helping Wales reach its net-zero goals and creating prosperity at the same time. So, does the Prif Weinidog therefore agree with me that today's missed opportunity to pledge to devolve the Crown Estate shouldn't be repeated by the next UK Government?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, let me just make one point before addressing the Crown Estate issue. I have never made the argument that Wales could not be independent because we couldn't afford it.I think, if people in Wales want to be independent, then that's the decision that they can make. But people who make that argument do have to face up to the issue that, in Wales, we spend £13 billion a year more than we raise in revenue. [Interruption.] And—. Well, I'm afraid that so-called 'debunking' turns out not to be true at all. I think £13 billion is a figure that can be properly substantiated. And if we are to be independent, as he would argue, it's for him to explain where that £13 billion is to come from, and calling for fair funding from somebody else isn't going to fill that gap at all.
As to the Crown Estate, as I said in my opening answer, the Minister for Climate Change has made the case for the devolution of the Crown Estate many times. Nobody should be carried away with the idea, though, that this is a simple matter, and if you want to know just how complex it is, look at the negotiations that the Scottish Government has had to undertake in its reform of the fiscal framework, where it is now having to give back to the Treasury—give back to the Treasury—many, many millions of pounds in recognition of the fact that the Crown Estate in Scotland is devolved. So, nobody should believe that the devolution of the Crown Estate is some sort of free pass in which you get to keep all the advantages and have none of the current disadvantages. We believe in the devolution of the Crown Estate, because it would allow us to have a greater alignment between our responsibilities and our ambitions for the collection of renewable energy in the Celtic sea, and we think we would be able to align those responsibilities in a way that would maximise those opportunities. It's not as simple as writing a paragraph in a five-point plan, however; it's a good deal more complex than that.

General Practitioners

Heledd Fychan AS: 3. How is the Welsh Government ensuring that everyone in South Wales Central has access to a GP as close to their community as possible? OQ60184

Mark Drakeford AC: Thank you for that question. Llywydd, the Welsh Government's policy is to secure access to the wider primary care team as part of a modern range of ways in which patients can secure the right help in the right way.

Heledd Fychan AS: Thank you, First Minister. A consultation is about to begin regarding the permanent closure of Taff Vale surgeries in Ynysybwl and Cilfynydd. This is a cause of great concern for residents who already find it difficult to reach appointments at other surgeries if they don't have a car, because the journey entails taking at least two buses to get there. There's been a reduction in the local bus service and the services that do run are also infrequent, which means that people are already late getting to their appointments or they can't get there at all, even though they very much need those appointments. Do you believe that health boards should be doing everything within their power to keep surgeries in our communities open for the benefit of patients, but also for the benefit of the health service itself, so that appointments aren't missed?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, of course I recognise the fact that when things do change that raises concerns with people in the local community. But in the case referred to by the Member, there is a process available, and it's important that the health board pursues that process in a way that responds to the points raised by local people. It is important, I think, to give some context to the points that Heledd Fychan raised.

Mark Drakeford AC: The two sites to which the Member refers, Llywydd, just to be clear, those sites have both been closed since September 2022. So, this is not a sudden closure of two sites that were offering services to those populations today; they've been closed for well over a year. And it's true as well that a pretty minimal number of services were provided at those locations before that date. Since September 2022, the Cilfynydd site has flooded. It was flooded in December 2022, and it's in pretty poor condition. The local population still has three sites serviced by the Taff Vale medical centre: the Dewi Sant Hospital in Pontypridd, the centre at Glyncoch, and the main surgery at Rhydyfelin.
But what is important, as I said, is that the process, which is now started, is run properly and carefully, that people's concerns are listened to, and where there are answers to them, that they can be provided. The local medical committee has already said that it is in favour of the proposals, and Llais, the community health councils' successor body, the voice of patients, has also said that it supports the proposal. Now, there will be other voices and other views and that's why the process itself is important.

Joel James AS: First Minister, as you've just mentioned, the Cilfynydd and Ynysybwl GP surgeries have been closed to the public since the COVID pandemic, and with the Cilfynydd surgery being flooded almost a year ago, it looks more and more unlikely that it will reopen. But, as my colleague Heledd Fychan has just mentioned, the community in Cilfynydd is extremely concerned by the fact that they don't even have access to a local GP surgery, and they're completely frustrated by the lack of communication and service by Taff Vale surgery, all of which has added considerably to their stress and worry. Obviously, we will of course do everything we can to make sure Cilfynydd has a surgery, but with this in mind, and given the difficulties associated with public transport in the village, what steps is the Welsh Government taking to work with the local authority and the health board to provide better transport options, and to also promote the use of community transport operators as a viable short-term alternative, whilst residents wait for their surgery to reopen? Thank you.

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, I take seriously the point the Member has made about communication. It's why I emphasised, in my answer to Heledd Fychan, the importance of the process being properly followed, and the opportunities there for people to be able to make their voices known, and communication is very important in all of that.
And I'm not surprised to hear—and I think I had already heard from the local community—that public transport is one of the issues that is likely to be raised. One of the surgeries is 2 miles away from one of the three surgeries that remain, and the other is 3 miles, or just under 3 miles, away from another surgery. So, these are not huge distances. If you lived in some other parts of Wales, where I grew up, to be within 2 miles of a surgery would be thought to be pretty well advantaged. But, for that local population, they will need assurances that those surgeries will be available to them, and I expect the health board to listen carefully to the points that the public make about public transport connectivity.

Transport in South Wales West

Tom Giffard AS: 4. What is the Welsh Government's strategy for transport in South Wales West? OQ60206

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, that strategy is set out in 'Llwybr Newydd', published in 2021.

Tom Giffard AS: Diolch, Prif Weinidog. As the Welsh Government moves towards a policy of modal shift, taking us out of our cars and on to public transport, you'd think the Welsh Government would provide a decent public transport system to ensure that could happen. But, unfortunately, the Welsh Government's war on motorists has been met with a similar approach to public transport. Not only have bus subsidies been cut, leading to reductions in routes and timetables across Wales, but we've also seen the default 20 mph scheme causing chaos with bus timetabling too. Arriva Bus, last month, said the new limit is causing 'challenging operational conditions'. And I spoke to a bus company in my region, Adventure Travel, who were only too happy to say that 20 mph is, 'causing running times issues', and they were also looking at the possibility of amending timetables as a result. So, First Minister, it's clear that this 20 mph policy is failing. Is now not the time to withdraw it?

Mark Drakeford AC: No, Llywydd.

Sioned Williams AS: Last week, many bus services within my region were either scaled back or withdrawn completely, and over the weekend, more than 100 people in Neath Port Talbot and Swansea shared their thoughts about some of these changes with me. The picture they painted was of how they rely on buses, how they value these services, and how they will be devastatingly impacted by cuts. Although I've heard from constituents about the 256 bus from Pontardawe to Neath being so full now, due to limited service, that people feared for their safety, in answer to a question I asked you about services, Brif Weinidog, you referred to passenger numbers as being one of the main drivers behind the current crisis. So, what actions is the Welsh Government taking to boost passenger numbers on buses? Do you accept that cuts that reduce coverage, frequency, reliability and cause overcrowding will make the task of boosting passenger numbers more difficult?
Last month, the climate and environment committee of the Welsh Youth Parliament published their 'Sustainable Ways' report. What considerations have been made of the recommendations, particularly the call for free bus travel for young people and how that could help boost passenger numbers? Diolch.

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, when I said to the Member that the failure of the fare box to recover to pre-pandemic levels has been at the root of the challenges facing the bus service across Wales, then I was simply reflecting the facts of the matter. There are fewer people using buses in Wales today than there were back in 2019, and that does have a material impact upon the ability of companies to go on running services that were there when there were more passengers. It's also having a material impact upon the budget of the Welsh Government, because we are subsidising bus services across Wales to a greater extent than ever before. The Member will know that during the passage of the last budget, Plaid Cymru identified three priorities that they wished the Welsh Government to take into account in shaping that budget. One of those was further help for the bus industry, and that is why we are providing £46 million over and above the subsidies that were already there for this industry in this financial year.
Now, of course, I wish people were using the buses in the numbers that they did previously. It's a complex pattern as to why that is not the case. The largest fall-off in passenger numbers is amongst people who didn't pay for bus travel, in people who were exempted from paying for travel because they were over 60 or in another qualifying category. Something happened during COVID that means those people are still no longer resuming the sorts of patterns of living out their lives that were there before COVID struck. And while I'm very keen to encourage people to go back onto the bus, I think it's going to take an effort that involves bus services and bus companies themselves, and the impact of the bus Bill that we will bring in front of the Senedd to allow us to use the subsidy that is provided to maximum effect.
I think encouraging young people to use buses is a very good way to recruit the public transport users of the future, and that's the point that the Youth Parliament made in their commentary on that matter. We do already directly subsidise bus travel for people under the age of 25 in certain conditions. In the end, all these things are choices, aren't they? We make choices where we use the limited resources we have. We made a choice, following that budget discussion, to take another of Plaid Cymru's three priorities to increase the level of education maintenance allowance for young people in Wales, raising it from £30 to £40. That money could have been used for a different purpose. It could have been used to do more to subsidise travel for young people in Wales.
Unfortunately, there's one sum of money and many competing priorities for which it could be used. We need to continue a discussion, as we will as the budget for next year begins to be formed and make its way through the Senedd, as to how we can use the limited and reducing resources available to us against the many different important, worthy purposes that could be identified for it.

Sarah Murphy AS: Myself and Huw Irranca-Davies, MS for Ogmore, recently have been meeting with lots of young people across both of our constituencies. We actually met with a group of young people, organised by Leonard Cheshire, around 50 young people, and they could ask us any question they wanted. And we also went to Cynffig Comprehensive School in Pyle, organised by Tyler Thomas, to speak to the sixth form there. Again, they could ask us any questions that they wanted. For two hours straight, all they talked to us was about transport. It's so important to them. They very much relate it as well to climate change and the objectives that we have as a Welsh Government that they've mostly called on us to fulfil as well, and they appreciate that. There was a mixture of the kinds of questions. Some of them were about service—buses not turning up, cancellations. They don't understand why they can't get live updates on their phone, and things like this. But also, just about there not being in some areas some commercial routes that then can double up so that they can use it for public transport, which most of them could see was a really good way forward.
So, First Minister, I can also see that today we have many young people in the gallery as well. I did also suggest that I could run a silent disco on the bus journeys from Bridgend to the Senedd, which they all thought was a great idea, to try to get people back on. We’ve got to start thinking outside the box here. But I was wondering if you could just speak to our young people, First Minister, and give them some hope about where we are going with this in the future with the bus reform Bill and how this fits into our climate justice objectives. Diolch.

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank Sarah Murphy, Llywydd, and I congratulate her and Huw Irranca-Davies on the conversations they’ve been having. I’m lucky myself to have many opportunities, as do other colleagues here, to have those conversations. And you’re right, of course—there are things that occur every single time. I never have a conversation with young people without the issue of mental health being raised with me, and being raised in a post-pandemic context as well. And as Sarah Murphy says, Llywydd, the climate emergency is also something that young people absolutely regularly raise with anybody who is able to listen to them.
I think we heard some ideas there, Llywydd, as to how we could increase passenger numbers in the way that Sioned Williams suggested. I think bus companies should be making use of modern technologies to make sure that good information is easily available to people. I commend Cardiff Bus in this way. I was speaking to some other, slightly older people recently who said that their use of the bus in Cardiff had been transformed by the fact that you don’t need to turn up at a bus stop now and wonder whether the bus has just gone, or how long it will be before the next one arrives, because you can just look it up on your phone and time leaving your house because you know when that bus is going to be available. On whether silent discos will bring back many of the people over 60 who no longer use the bus, well, I could declare an interest and say I’m not certain it would be the thing that would guarantee that I would be queuing for it.
But I think on the broader picture that the Member asks about, the answer to that is to be found in the forthcoming bus Bill, because it will allow us to align in a much better way scheduled bus services and school transport together, to make sure that there is a more efficient service for learners. We see this happening already. I commend the work of Labour-controlled Monmouthshire County Council, who have been leading the way in this regard, showing how public control of bus networks can allow us to align services for learners and the general public, and, in the process, get a better service for everyone.

Flood Prevention

Carolyn Thomas AS: 5. How is the Welsh Government making landowners aware of the importance of proper maintenance of culverts and ditches for flood prevention? OQ60190

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank Carolyn Thomas. The Welsh Government works closely with our risk management authorities. They maintain oversight of privately owned culverts and ditches. Natural Resources Wales has published guidance for riparian landowners outlining their risks and responsibilities. By adhering to the guidance, landowners play their part in reducing flood risk.

Carolyn Thomas AS: Thank you for your response, First Minister. Many expect that NRW and our councils maintain all ditches and drains and that sandbags are provided. Perhaps before austerity, but with limited resources and increasing flood events, it's too much nowadays. There needs to be a concerted effort from all partners providing clarity of information regarding responsibility. Mapping will help community groups know which authority or landowner is responsible for enforcing or clearing. In rural areas, landowners need to take responsibility to stop water draining onto the highways. So, could some consistent information be produced in partnership with NRW and councils to give to landowners explaining that under riparian law they are responsible for maintaining their ditches and drains? I know you said that that is being provided, but if councils and NRW had a leaflet just to give out as well, so it’s all there, really simple, to put through doors, it would save a lot of time. Promoting not covering land with non-permeable areas, signing up to flood alerts, community flood groups for residents, and information regarding flood defence, including sandbags, would help clarify for our residents. Thank you.

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank Carolyn Thomas for that. I think myself that the issue here is one more of communication than information, because, actually, a great dealof information is already available dealing with exactly the points that the Member has raised.
On a very wet Saturday afternoon, and making my way through the questions folder as I do, I went and looked on the NRW website to see what information was there already for landowners in the way that the question posed. I brought with me this afternoon the guide, which, actually, I must admit, I had never seen before. But when I had a chance to look through it, I think, actually, it's a very well-put-together and very informative document: 'A guide to your rights and responsibilities of riverside ownership in Wales'. And there was a lot more. I'm afraid I spent more of my afternoon than I ought to have then in exploring the NRW site and looking at all the maps that are available there and the information that is available for people who want to find out more about flood risk in their own areas.
Where I agree with Carolyn Thomas is that if I'd never heard of it or seen it, then I'm sure that that's probably the experience of most Welsh citizens. So, there is more that certainly can be done to make sure that the excellent resources that I think are now available for people, using very sophisticated data sources and mapping, are better known to people. And in that way, the Welsh Government can work with others to make sure that that information is better known about, and can therefore better be deployed.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: I'll refer Members to my declaration of interest form in terms of property ownership.
As Senedd Members are aware—although I'm not too convinced—our watercourses are split into two categories: main rivers and ordinary watercourses. We've raised previously concerns about main rivers with NRW and that in some flooding incidents there have been major problems with ordinary watercourses. We've long campaigned for better knowledge and understanding of the responsibilities held by riparian landowners. Indeed, in 2021, we proposed a flooding Wales Bill that had several aims, not least to ensure that there is an ongoing campaign to improve riparian owners' awareness of their responsibilities. Because it's not necessarily rivers—there can be culverts, ditches, drains on land owned by these landowners. And we also wanted to create a support system that identifies and assists riparian owners who are not fulfilling their own responsibilities.
In Aberconwy we have stretches of ordinary watercourses where the riparian owner is not even known, so no maintenance is taking place and this is putting pressure when there's a flood. So, could you look at this again, First Minister, with the Minister, and perhaps co-operate with HM Land Registry to try and create a database of all responsible riparian landowners in Wales, and then make them aware of that information that you've had to go looking for that's on a website? And then hopefully this will all contribute to not seeing as many of our community areas flooded. Thank you.

Mark Drakeford AC: I think the Member raises a number of important points there about responsibilities and people being aware of them, and, indeed, people understanding that they are indeed responsible. If you own a property of that sort, it comes with rights, as the NRW document sets out, but it definitely does come with the responsibilities that people need to discharge.I will have a conversation with the Minister for Climate Change on the idea of a database of riparian landlords to see how easily that could be brought about and whether the reward would be worth the effort.

The A465 Heads of the Valleys Road

Vikki Howells AC: 6. Will the First Minister provide an update on the delivery of the upgrade to sections 5 and 6 of the A465 Heads of the Valleys road? OQ60182

Mark Drakeford AC: The A465 project sections 5 and 6 is currently three years into its construction period, and despite the project starting during the height of the COVID pandemic, good progress has been maintained. The scheduled and anticipated completion is by the summer of 2025.

Vikki Howells AC: First Minister, the dualling of this section of the Heads of the Valleys road is without doubt the most impressive civil engineering project currently being delivered in Wales. The work will vastly improve connectivity between Hirwaun and Dowlais Top and will have a transformative impact on safety on this notoriously dangerous stretch. The construction spans several challenging gorges, and also involves the creation of many miles of walking, cycling and equestrian routes, careful habitat management plans, a network of attenuation plans to combat flooding, and the planting of two trees for every one that it has been necessary to remove. I'm very proud to have this Welsh Government-funded project being undertaken in my constituency. So, First Minister, would you like to visit the works with me to see for yourself this once-in-a-lifetime large-scale engineering excellence?

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank the Member for that compelling case. Of course, I completely agree with her about the engineering feat and the huge advantages that will come in the construction period itself: over 800 people working in the project living in Valleys areas; nearly 100 apprenticeships created as part of it; 12,600 trees planted already; and another 12,000 to come this year.
Llywydd, during the election period leading up to our election in 2021, I made a memorable visit with the Member for Blaenau Gwent. It stays very much in my mind, because we went to a bridge that was being constructed over part of the Heads of the Valleys road, and just the sheer feat of engineering was extraordinary. But alongside that, we were also able to see the safety improvements that that will bring about, and the high degree of sensitivity that was being applied to the environmental impact of the road, and the opportunities that came with it there. So, that visit has stayed in my mind very vividly ever since, and I would be very pleased indeed to come and see the same impact being had in Vikki Howells's constituency.

Access to Health Treatment

Darren Millar AC: 7. What action is the Welsh Government taking to improve access to treatment for patients in North Wales? OQ60209

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank Darren Millar for that, Llywydd. The Welsh Government supports improved access to investment in new services, training of staff with skills needed for the future, implementing ways of working based on innovative technologies, and supporting the board in the discharge of its responsibilities.

Darren Millar AC: First Minister, there have been two alarming reports in recent days about delays in treatment that have led to significant patient harm in north Wales. The first was brought to the attention of us all by the Public Services Ombudsman for Wales, who investigated a complaint—a complaint that had taken four years for the health board to consider before it was passed to the Public Services Ombudsman for Wales—about a delay in treatment for a stroke patient, which led to them becoming permanently blind in one eye and being in chronic pain. That was in spite of the fact that they attended an emergency department and should have had emergency surgery—urgent surgery. That took 11 months before they finally got it.
In addition to that, the north Wales coroner has raised concerns following the death of a patient from pneumonia and sepsis in February last year. She died because her medical notes had been lost. She needed urgent scans and wasn't able to get them. The coroner was so concerned about this that she issued a public interest report, and she expressed the fact that she didn't feel that any lessons had been learned by staff.
Now, you and I both know that any organisation that seeks to improve itself can only do so if it learns from its mistakes. That clearly hasn't been happening in north Wales. And I ask you, given that this is a health board that is in special measures, what action the Welsh Government will now take to make sure that patients don't suffer those sorts of consequences ever again.

Mark Drakeford AC: I am familiar, sadly, with both of the cases to which Darren Millar refers, and both reports make for very sobering reading. I have seen the response that the health board has issued in both cases. I don't think that it is fair to characterise the board as not being interested in learning lessons. And, just as there are very difficult reports that have been published recently, there are other, more encouraging, reports as well. The Member may have not have had a chance to see Healthcare Inspectorate Wales's report, published today, in relation to Llandudno hospital. And I think that that report does demonstrate a board that is committed to learning some of the lessons of the past and to putting those lessons into practice. And I certainly think that the interim chief executive and the chair of the board come at their work very determined to make sure that lessons are learnt, and that episodes that are entirely unacceptable, of the sort highlighted by the public services ombudsman and in that coroner's reflections on a case from February last year—that those lessons are systematically learnt across the health board, and that that learning is put to the best of use amongst, as I know Darren Millar will recognise, those thousands of highly committed staff who work for the health board, and who come in every day wanting to do their very best for patients in north Wales.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: And finally, question 8, Rhys ab Owen.

The Environmental Protection (Single-use Plastic Products) (Wales) Act 2023

Rhys ab Owen AS: 8. What support is the Welsh Government providing to local businesses to ensure compliance with the Environmental Protection (Single-use Plastic Products) (Wales) Act? OQ60202

Mark Drakeford AC: The Welsh Government has worked with business representatives to help raise awareness. Guidance has been developed to support the implementation of the bans, and this has included a national communication campaign. Businesses have also been able to seek advice via Business Wales and our dedicated electronic mailbox.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: No, the word is 'blwch'.

Mark Drakeford AC: 'Blwch'?

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Yes, 'blwch'.

Mark Drakeford AC: I wanted to say 'bwlch', but the word is 'blwch'.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: There are two words,'blwch' and 'bwlch', and that was 'blwch'.

Mark Drakeford AC: So, it's an electronic box, essentially. [Laughter.]

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Box. [Laughter.] Rhys ab Owen.

Rhys ab Owen AS: Thank you very much, First Minister, and Llywyddfor the lesson.

Rhys ab Owen AS: I don't know whether the First Minister enjoys curry and chips on Caroline Street or 'Chippy Lane', as some call it, but many of the takeaway owners there are struggling with the cost of sustainable products to implement this very important legislation. Some shop owners report an increase of three times in comparison to the single-use plastic products they were using. They claim it's down to simple economics. There simply aren't enough eco-friendly products on the market to make the price competitive. This does not only, of course, impact the businesses, but it increases, then, the price of curry and chips to consumers.
Will the Welsh Government look into ways to encourage manufacturers of eco-friendly alternatives to help support Welsh businesses, and help support the important Cardiff tradition of curry and chips on Caroline Street? Diolch yn fawr.

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, I read a BBC report of a reporter who'd been to Caroline Street, and I think they came away with a rather different impression, not just from users but from the owners of chip shops and curry houses as well. The truth of the matter is that until you create a mass demand for non-plastic implements, the cost will not come down. And that's what this legislation does, and that's why it was so powerfully supported in this Chamber. We have to bring about that sort of change in which single-use plastics are no longer, despite their current price advantage, the standard way in which we go about things here in Wales. And by creating a mass market for non-plastic forms of cutlery and so on, that's the way in which prices will come down as well. And that was recognised by many of the owners of restaurants in Caroline Street as part of that BBC report.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: I thank the First Minister.

2. Business Statement and Announcement

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: The next item is the business statement and announcement, and I call on the Trefnydd to make that statement—Lesley Griffiths.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Diolch, Llywydd. There have been several changes to this week's business, all of which are set out on the published agendas. Draft business for the next three weeks is set out on the business statement and announcement, which can be found amongst the meeting papers available to Members electronically.

Darren Millar AC: Trefnydd, can I call on a statement from an appropriate Welsh Government Minister on the feasibility of the establishment of a national observatory for Wales? You'll know that this is something I've taken an interest in in recent years, and I'm particularly keen to see a national observatory established in the Clwydian range, in what will be our new national park, which I'm very much looking forward to. I undertook a visit to Wrexham University yesterday, where I met with the vice-chancellor. We were discussing the cutting-edge research and work that is being done in St Asaph, at the optoelectronics technology centre there, which of course would be very useful in terms of applying some of that knowledge and research to the development of lenses for telescopes, for observing the night skies. And it seems to me that there's a lot of synergy here with being able to establish a research base in north Wales, in the Clwydian range, to take advantage of this, which could become a national centre of excellence. There have been similar projects delivered in the Republic of Ireland. And I think that, therefore, this is something that I would hope that we might be able to pursue, in conjunction with the higher education sector, acting also as a visitor attraction. So, could I ask for a feasibility study to be undertaken by the Welsh Government in order to see whether this is something that could be taken forward?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. I think you raise a very important point. I think the Minister would actually be me, because obviously I'm responsible for the new national park. But I'd be very happy to have a look, and perhaps have a discussion with my colleague Jeremy Miles, to see if this is something that would be worth doing ahead of the new national park coming into being, which is progressing very well, just for Members to be aware, and National Resources Wales are obviouslytaking that forward. But I do think that's a very important point and I'd be very happy to look at that.

Heledd Fychan AS: Trefnydd, in August 145 Welsh writers, journalists, academics and other contributors to magazines and websites funded by the Books Council of Wales published an open letter addressed to Welsh Government, Creative Wales and the books council. The key issue raised was regarding huge reductions in core grants having a devastating impact on working conditions, and this puts the sector at risk, making its future precarious. Could I ask for a statement from the Deputy Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism about the discussions her officials have had in relation to the issues raised and how they are being addressed?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. As you'll be aware, we have had some very difficult decisions to take over the course of the summer and ahead of the draft budget being published, and looking at next year's budget as well, and, clearly, the Deputy Minister has had to make some very difficult decisions. I don't think a statement around discussions that she's had, or her officials have had, with stakeholders would be appropriate. But I think what would be worth while is that, obviously, as the budget is scrutinised here in the Chamber, questions could be asked.

Jane Dodds AS: Good afternoon, Minister. I'd appreciate a statement, please, from the Minister for Health and Social Services concerning the closure of Belmont surgery, which serves Crickhowell, and also they've lost their NHS dental services there. We know that rural communities particularly face challenges accessing healthcare, and that's why the loss of Belmont surgery, with its GPs, and the NHS dental service, is of such serious concern to that particular local community. It's really important that we make sure that the local people have those local resources, and we know how the local provision actually then ensures that they get the attention that they need. So, I'd be grateful for a statement from the Minister on the plans to improve rural healthcare in south Powys. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you very much. I think it's really important to set out right from the beginning that no-one, no patient in Wales should be without access to a GP, whether that be in a rural area or an urban area. If anybody is struggling to find a GP that they can access, they should contact their local health board. I do understand that Powys Teaching Health Board have put a mitigation plan in place to minimise impact to GP access as a result of the closure of Belmont branch surgery. I think it's fair to say that the local delivery model for primary care may sometimes require change to ensure safe and sustainable services for patients, and health boards have established procedures for handling proposals for changes to the delivery of local services that have followed Welsh Government guidance.

Gareth Davies AS: Can I have a statement from the Minister for Health and Social Services this afternoon on NHS dentistry in the Vale of Clwyd and the work the Welsh Government have been doing to alleviate pressures on local dentistry in Denbighshire, particularly patients who are or who used to be served by Elwy Dental Practice in Rhyl? They have contacted me in their droves recently, reporting that they've been struck off the NHS list through no fault of their own and are now having to fork out for private treatment. And this is in a time when finances are tight and the fact that west Rhyl, where Elwy Dental Practice is situated, is in an area of high deprivation.
So, what appears to be the case is the fact that the NHS contract offered to dentists from the Welsh Government is uncompetitive with the private sector, and professionals in dentistry are migrating from the NHS to the private sector in pursuit of better pay, better terms and conditions and less red tape and bureaucracy. So, it seems incumbent on the Welsh Government to get back around the table with the sector and create an NHS contract that is competitive, that will aid dentists back into the NHS and provide the first-class oral care that the people of Rhyl and Denbighshire are used to and are currently not receiving. So, can I please have a statement on the progress the Welsh Government is making on this matter and what meetings and discussions have you had with the dental sector to alleviate this ever-growing problem for my constituents? Thank you.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Well, the Minister for Health and Social Services and her officials continue to have discussions. I think it's only right to point out that only 24 out of 413 contracts have been handed back since April 2022.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: I thank the Trefnydd.

3. Statement by the Deputy Minister for Climate Change: Bus Reform

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Item 3 is next. This item has been postponed and will be issued as a written statement.

4. Statement by the Deputy Minister for Mental Health and Well-being: Update on the Dementia Action Plan

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Item 4 is postponed.

5. Statement by the Minister for Climate Change: Help to Stay

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: That brings us, therefore, to item 5, a statement by the Minister for Climate Change on Help to Stay. I call on the Minister to make her statement. Julie James.

Julie James AC: Diolch, Llywydd. Thank you very much for the opportunity to provide an update on the Help to Stay Wales mortgage support scheme.The current economic background presents many challenges. The cumulative impact of the significant rise in fuel cost, high inflation, escalating rent and house prices, with incomes often not keeping pace is not to be underestimated. During 2022-23 and 2023-24, we have allocated support worth more than £3.3 billion through targeted programmes and programmes that put money back into families’ pockets. We will continue to prioritise our support based on our clear principles of protecting front-line services as best we can, supporting households who are hardest hit by the cost-of-living crisis and prioritising jobs.
The Bank of England's 12 consecutive interest rate hikes in the last 18 months have led to significantly increased costs of borrowing. This is a concern for many and is seen across the lending market, whether that is in relation to mortgage lending, private rent increases as a result of buy-to-let mortgage rises, higher interest loans for businesses or in the financing of new social homes. According to the figures from UK Finance, about 800,000 fixed mortgages will expire before the end of this year, with a further 1.6 million coming to an end in 2024. The figures do not include variable rate and tracker mortgages, which will already have risen sharply leading to higher payments.The Resolution Foundation says annual mortgage repayments are set to be £15.8 billion a year higher by 2026 compared to December 2021, when the bank started raising interest rates. Annual repayments for people remortgaging next year are set to rise by £2.9 billion on average—sorry, £2,900 on average. I need to get my noughts in a row.Mortgage and landlord possession statistics for April to June 2023 show that, compared to the same quarter in 2022, mortgage possession claimsincreasedby 15 per cent.

The Deputy Presiding Officer (David Rees) took the Chair.

Julie James AC: Detailed discussions about the mortgage market as part of the co-operation agreement commitment to explore local mortgage support have contributed to our understanding of the gaps in the market and where we can target support. Now we have an opportunity to help more people by widening our current mortgage rescue offering to support those at an earlier stage, not just those that are threatened with repossession. This includes providing support to those who are trapped on a standard variable product and unable to arrange an affordable new mortgage.By acting now with increased investment, we can prevent many individuals and families from entering possession proceedings and becoming homeless, adding to the already stressed waiting lists and high temporary accommodation costs for local authorities.
A sum of £40 million of repayable capital funding has been made available over the next two years to bring forward schemes to provide flexible financial support, and today I can announce the launch of the Help to Stay Wales mortgage support scheme and provide information to home owners, including eligibility criteria. This has been agreed as part of the budget agreement with Plaid Cymru for 2023-24.The Help to Stay Wales scheme will provide an option for home owners who are struggling to afford their mortgage payments and are at serious risk of losing their home by offering a partial repayment of an existing mortgage balance via a low-cost equity loan, secured by a second charge, behind a first-charge lender, reducing revised mortgage repayments to a level the applicant can afford.
Most current schemes require people to already be in possession proceedings to qualify. Help to Stay will extend this to include those facing possession proceedings and/or in financial hardship. The scheme is only available for eligible households who have explored all other measures offered by the mortgage provider through the UK mortgage charter and sought help through debt advice services.
Home owners who are eligible will receive free mortgage advice from specialist debt advisers, with the costs fully covered by the Welsh Government. This will ensure the applicant has received independent advice as to the options available, confirm that all other avenues had been exhausted, and verify the levels of debt service the applicant could reasonably afford based on a review of their current circumstances. Full guidance on the scheme, including the eligibility criteria, is now available on the Welsh Government website.
Dirprwy Lywydd, I would like to take this opportunity to thank the external partners and sector experts who have assisted us in developing this scheme at pace. Their support and hard work have been critical to establishing the right qualifying criteria and to support the processes. I would also like to thank UK Finance and those lenders who are supporting the scheme. I hope that more will be able provide their support over the coming weeks.
We will continue to do all we can with the powers we have to help protect vulnerable households through this cost-of-living crisis. The new Help to Stay Wales scheme adds to this support and will help to provide the necessary help for home owners under financial stress to stay in their own homes. Diolch.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Thank you, Minister, for bringing forward this statement. I think it's fair to say that we're all well aware now of how tough it is for people, especially those with a mortgage and that regular commitment that they have to pay on a monthly basis. The Bank of England decision to hold the base interest rate at 5.25 per cent for the second time in a row will prolong that time of hardship, but we all hope that there is now going to be some light at the end of the tunnel. The bank's monetary policy committee, which makes the decisions about the rates, are expecting a sharp slow-down in inflation to 4.8 per cent in October's figures, and we just hope that we go forward with lower inflation rates.
The UK Government is already providing support too for those with mortgages. Lenders that cover over 75 per cent of the market have agreed to the Chancellor's new mortgage charter, providing support to residential mortgage customers, and anyone worried about their mortgage repayments can call their lender—[Interruption.] Sorry.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Just ignore it, Janet, please. Continue your contribution.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Anyone worried about their mortgage repayments can call their lender for information and support without impact on their credit score. Customers won't be forced to have their homes repossessed within 12 months from their first missed payment, and customers approaching the end of a fixed-rate deal are offered the chance to lock in a deal up to six months ahead, so they're also able to apply for a better deal right up until their new term starts if one is available. A new agreement agreed between lenders, the Financial Conduct Authority and the Government permits customers to switch to an interest-only mortgage for six months, or even to extend their mortgage term to reduce their monthly payments and switch back to their original term within the first six months if they choose to. Both options can be taken without a new affordability check or affecting their credit score.
We know there is support for customers now who are up to date with payments to switch to a new mortgage deal at the end of their existing fixed-rate deal without another affordability check. There is well-timed information to help customers plan ahead should their current rate be due to end, and there is tailored support offered for anyone struggling. This could mean extending their term to reduce their payments, offering a switch to interest-only payments, but also a range of other options like a temporary payment deferral or part interest, part repayment. And I agree, we need to make sure everybody knows their rights if they are in trouble with their mortgage so they can feel comfortable speaking with their lender and understand the measures they can request for help.
So, in addition to bringing this money forward, what steps will you take to help improve awareness of the mortgage charter in Wales? Why have you not opted for a scheme that allows social landlords to buy homes that are threatened with repossession so that the house owner can continue to live in what they have considered their home for probably quite some years? I am aware that the eligibility criteria is quite specific, such as a £300,000 maximum property value and £67,000 maximum household income. How has that eligibility criteria been arrived at and are you confident that it will result in help being offered to those who genuinely need it? Thank you. Diolch.

Julie James AC: Well, thank you, Janet, for reading out the UK Government's alleged help. As I'm sure you noticed when you were reading it out, all it amounts to is asking your lender to either extend your loan or to help you get an even more expensive one. I mean, that's not really going to help very many people at all. I do welcome the advice to contact your lender—we are going along with that. Absolutely, as soon as somebody thinks that they're in any difficulty at all with a mortgage payment, they obviously should contact their lender straight away. The Welsh Government funds a whole series of debt advice services that people should contact, because we do not want anyone to start sliding into mortgage default unless they absolutely have no option.
The point of this scheme is to help those people who simply cannot afford the mortgage as they find it and who will not be in a position to be able to sell their home in good order, in time to be able to get themselves somewhere else to live, for a whole range of circumstances. There's a range of circumstances for each family that will very much differ. It may be that you're in the final years of very high levels of childcare, for example, and, in the next two years, you might well get into a position where your children are in full-time school and your financial position will improve as a result of that, and so on. So, there's an enormous range of circumstances that people find themselves in. I do think, though, Janet, that you have just got to accept that the current state of play, with inflation and what happened last year with the Truss Government, has absolutely wrecked people's finances. I don't think that that's a political point anymore—it just really has. People were going from 1.9 per cent fixed interest rates to 6.2 per cent—nobody can afford that. I mean, it's just outrageous.
In answer to one of your other questions, this isn't the only product we have; this is just a product. We absolutely do allow registered social landlords and councils to buy people out—a mortgage rescue package. This is a Help to Stay, which isn't a buy-out, but I just want to emphasise that this is one of a whole series of interventions that we've done as part of the co-operation agreement. We've been working on a mortgage rescue package for some time with Siân Gwenllian, as part of the package here, because we do also want people to stay in their own homes. But the fundamental point here is that, if somebody becomes homeless, it's not a lifestyle choice—I mean, I just can't believe I heard that from a UK Government Minister, to be honest. It's absolutely shameful to say that. It is because you have had a series of unfortunate events, to say the least, and it could happen to any one of us—any one of us. What we're doing here is we're saying that, both in human terms and in financial terms, it is a great deal kinder and it's also financially prudent to help people stay in their own homes. Typically, a family that becomes homeless is five times more expensive, having gone around housing options, than they were the day before, when they weren't homeless. So, this is a very good use of public money, both to reduce human trauma and, actually, it's just a really good invest-to-save, because it will help people to stay on their feet, to stay in their own homes and, where they do have to move, it will give them the space to be able to do so in good order so that they don't have to do so in a precipitate way, which is very traumatising. So, I think this is an excellent product, born of a very, very bad set of decisions by the UK Government.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: And finally, Mabon ap Gwynfor.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: Thank you very much, Dirprwy Lywydd, and I thank the Minister for today’s announcement. On behalf of Plaid Cymru, I very much welcome this Help to Stay scheme and the package of £40 million for it through the co-operation agreement with Plaid Cymru.
An increasing number of people in Wales face great uncertainty and are living in fear of homelessness as a result of ongoing inflationary pressures and the cost-of-living crisis. This support package will help a number of families in Wales to keep a roof over their heads, and this is to be welcomed. This, of course, is in stark contrast to the immoral Government in Westminster. We heard nothing like this in the King’s Speech, and I am confident that we won’t hear a similar scheme being announced in the autumn statement in a fortnight's time.
But it is clear that our priority, through the co-operation agreement between Plaid Cymru and the Welsh Government, is ensuring that people have a roof over their heads and that people can live in dignity and safety. This support is possible because we see institutions and organisations in Wales working for the benefit of the people of Wales. This is devolution, despite its limitations, working for the people of Wales, providing support for those who require it in their hour of greatest need. This is Wales mitigating the harmful effects of a crisis created in Westminster. Consider what we could achieve with the full powers that would come with independence. With independence, Wales would no longer be at the mercy of the inhuman Conservatives in Westminster. Instead, we could plough our own furrow and create the fairer economic policies needed to eradicate homelessness and ensure that everyone lived with dignity in Wales. Does the Minister, I wonder, agree with this analysis?
Now, Plaid Cymru has a proud history of supporting people in this way. We remember the outstanding work of Jocelyn Davies when she was housing Minister back in 2008, and the mortgage rescue scheme she introduced at that time. This new package, Help to Stay, will go a step further than that by supporting people earlier on in the process, not just those who are at immediate risk of losing their properties. This means that they can remain in their homes and avoid the stress and anxiety that come in the wake of difficulties in paying the mortgage.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: At a time of such acute economic pressure on households, the extension of support to those facing repossession and financial hardship will reduce the number of home owners at risk of repossession and homelessness by offering them time to resolve their underlying financial issues. Crucially, the scheme will help many to avoid the traumatic and growing issue of homelessness, and will help reduce pressure on temporary accommodation services, which are currently under immense strain, with the latest statistics indicating 11,185 individuals were in temporary accommodation.
The scheme before us today will, of course, work in tandem with other policies that we've long advocated for and have now secured through the co-operation agreement, namely the work on second homes and empty homes, new legislation on homelessness prevention, and the White Paper on property and fair rents. Plaid Cymru and the Labour Government clearly share an aim to ensure that everyone in Wales has the safety of a roof over their heads and a place to call home. And while welcoming the scheme’s launch today, I will continue to make the case for the Welsh Government to embrace and embed the right to adequate housing in Welsh law, to drive the change we want to see.
Ultimately, the precarious situation many mortgage holders are facing has happened because of the present make-up of the housing market, which essentially means the only option for most people to own a home is to get a mortgage for an essentially unaffordable property. What we really need to do is accelerate the construction of municipal housing to reduce costs, enabling more people to access secure and affordable housing. This scheme will go a long way in helping people across Wales, but it must also operate alongside a range of other policies. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Julie James AC: Diolch, Mabon. I completely agree with that last set of remarks. This is part of a suite of policies, as you've rightly said, many of which we've been working on together as part of the co-operation agreement. It's not in any way intended to be a substitute for building social homes, which we clearly need to do, but it's born out of the same circumstances as the difficulty of building social homes. So, we used to be able to build a social home for somewhere around £175,000 to £195,000, and now it's somewhere around £235,000 to £250,000. So, we're losing two in every million if you think of it like that. As a result of that, a large number of people who might have been facing this kind of hardship and who might have applied for social housing will be further back, because we aren't able to build them in the way that we would.
All of this is driven by the ridiculously bad fiscal policies of the UK Government. None of this is necessary at all. This is a catastrophic set of circumstances that were set in train by fiscal irresponsibility. There's no other way of putting it. So, what we're trying to do is we're trying to make sure that the trauma caused by that in many households across Wales is lessened, and, of course, it's a suite of policies. So, yes, we're absolutely looking at mortgage rescue where somebody actually loses the equity interest in their home but retains the ability to stay there. It's not ideal, but, nevertheless, better than being homeless. This allows you to keep your toehold on the property ladder.
The property market in Britain is broken—it absolutely is. So, these kinds of interventions are necessary to make sure that we keep as many people as possible in their homes, so it's very much part of what, Dirprwy Lywydd, you've heard me say many times is the prevention agenda. This isn't about just helping people at the sharp end who are not making a lifestyle choice, but who are there through no fault of their own in the majority of cases—I would go as far as to say every case, actually—and it's there to make sure that we get ahead of that and try and prevent that happening. This kind of financial stress drives family breakdown. That's the truth of it. Debt stress is one of the worst causes of family breakdown. So, trying to get ahead of that is one of the main aims of this policy.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: I thank the Minister.

6. Statement by the Minister for Social Justice and Chief Whip: Violence Against Women, Domestic Abuse and Sexual Violence Annual Report 2022-23

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: The next item will be a statement by the Minister for Social Justice, violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence annual report 2022-23. And I call on the Minister for Social Justice, Jane Hutt.

Jane Hutt AC: Diolch yn fawr, Dirprwy Lywydd. It is an appalling fact that violence against women and girls continues to blight lives, with harassment, abuse and violence a daily occurrence for many. It is shocking that on average two women a week are killed by a current or former partner in England and Wales. The Welsh Government is clear about our ambition to end violence against women and girls. It is a societal problem, which requires a societal response, which we will both lead and drive.
Today, I am pleased to announce the publication of the violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence annual report for 2022–2023. Publishing this report is a statutory requirement under section 12 of the groundbreaking Violence Against Women, Domestic Abuse and Sexual Violence (Wales) Act 2015. The report highlights the progress the Welsh Government has made towards its goal to end gender-based violence. It covers the work completed between 1 April 2022 and 31 March 2023, with reference to the six objectives set out in the national strategy. The VAWDASV national strategy was published in May 2022, and is the second such strategy to be published under the 2015 Act.
The strategy sets out how the Welsh Government and its partners in the public, private and third sectors are tackling male violence, gender inequality and misogyny. The annual report provides an update on progress towards achieving each of the objectives. It highlights the important work carried out here in Wales to ensure women and girls are able to live fear free and all victims and survivors receive the support they need. It also acknowledges the importance of an intersectional approach. This will help us to further develop our understanding of VAWDASV and address the barriers faced by and diverse needs of all those affected, including children, older people, black, Asian and minority ethnic people, disabled people and LGBTQ+ people and communities.
This report shows the innovative way this strategy is being taken forward through a blueprint approach, which brings together devolved and non-devolved organisations, as well as strengthening the partnership between public, private and specialist sectors. Throughout 2022-23, the Welsh Government has been working with partners, including Policing in Wales and the specialist sector, to establish a new VAWDASV blueprint structure to deliver the national strategy. This builds on our successful women’s justice and youth justice blueprint models. The VAWDASV blueprint includes six work streams reporting to an operational programme board, which is, in turn, overseen by the strategic VAWDASV national partnership board that I co-chair with police and crime commissioner Dafydd Llywelyn.
I'm committed to placing the voice of survivors at the heart of this work. During the reporting period, a survivor voice scrutiny and involvement panel was established as part of the blueprint, and this ensures that all the blueprint work is scrutinised by survivors ahead of being considered by the VAWDASV national partnership board. Progress can only be made by engaging seriously and collaboratively with survivors.
The Welsh Government published the blueprint’s high-level action plan in March 2023. This describes the purpose of each of the work streams and sets out each of their high-level delivery plans. Establishing the blueprint has built a strong base to work collaboratively and I would like to extend my thanks to all of our partners for their shared commitment to this agenda. It's only by working together, by pooling our expertise and resources, that we will truly be able to tackle violence against women and to ensure everyone has access to support, that prevention can reduce harm and that perpetrators are able to address their behaviour. I would also like to thank the Equality and Social Justice Committee for the important work they have carried out in their inquiries in this field of policy.
As well as this annual report on the national strategy, we've also recently published an update on blueprint progress. In addition, I would like to draw attention to the invaluable work of our VAWDASV national advisers, Yasmin Khan and Johanna Robinson. They're actively supporting the blueprint, as well as advising me and helping to raise the profile of this work being delivered across Wales and beyond. They’ve just published their own annual report, and I commend it to Senedd Members and everyone else with an interest in ending violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence.
Some of the other key achievements highlighted in the annual report on the national strategy include that, in March this year, I announced a package of funding for BAWSO to provide support for migrant women fleeing abuse who have no recourse to public funds; extensive engagement with the UK Government on various pieces of legislation, including the Victims and Prisoners Bill, to ensure the devolved nature of service provision in Wales is taken into account; the development and launch of the Sound campaign, an early intervention and prevention campaign aimed at young men, encouraging them to make positive personal choices and to begin open conversations with their peers; 21,500 children and young people gained increased knowledge, awareness and understanding of healthy relationships through Spectrum sessions in primary schools; the procurement of the first Welsh Government national bystander training programme to challenge societal attitudes and increase the unacceptability of gender-based abuse; and, by the end of March 2023, over 342,000 professionals in Wales had accessed training through the national training framework, ensuring they have the knowledge and experience to respond confidently to those experiencing any form of gender-based abuse; and over 34,000 victims and survivors of violence against women were supported by the 24/7 Live Fear Free helpline, funded by the Welsh Government.
I am publishing this report in the run-up to White Ribbon Day on 25 November and the 16 days of activism that follow. White Ribbon is the UK’s leading charity engaging men and boys to end violence against women and girls. And I’m proud to report that, over the reporting period, the Welsh Government renewed its White Ribbon accreditation. The Welsh Government is the only UK Government or governmental department to be White Ribbon accredited.
As you will see from our annual report, Wales has made significant progress in tackling violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence, and we should be proud of our record. Nevertheless, there is still much more to do, and the creation of the blueprint clearly shows the level of our ambition. We’ve achieved a great deal but very substantial challenges remain and we will meet these head on.
In 2023-24 we will continue to work together in the spirit of co-production and collaboration to further develop the blueprint and deliver against the VAWDASV national strategy. Our commitment is to ensure everyone can live fear free, and Wales will not be a bystander to abuse.

Mark Isherwood AC: Yesterday evening, the Welsh Government sent Members a document, 'Violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence: annual progress report 2022 to 2023'. Why does this differ from the ‘Violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence: national advisers annual report 2022 to 2023', published last month, in both content and objectives? Where is the coherent, robust strategy detailing what, how, where, when, and who will deliver against these objectives? The national advisers report states, and I quote:
‘The Domestic Abuse Commissioner…for England and Wales provided a comprehensive report in 2022 “A Patchwork of provision: mapping report” how to meet the needs of victims and survivors across England and Wales.’
It goes on to say:
'This report highlighted the challenges in the ability of victims and survivors who wanted it to access counselling support, with a 21 percentage point difference between the highest area (58% in the North East of England) and lowest area (37% in Wales).'
Further, it states:
'in pursuit of holding perpetrators to account and the specific behaviour change interventions, 16% of survivors in the North East of England reported their perpetrator was able to access support to change behaviour, compared to 3% in Wales.'
So, how will you plug this gap in access to services here in Wales? The report also states that:
‘Survivor engagement and ensuring that experts by experience are involved in policy making and scrutiny of delivery at all levels is critical.’
However, Welsh Women’s Aid have highlighted concerns around the Renting Homes (Wales) Act 2016, that they’re not being listened to by Welsh Government, stating they do not believe the Act fitsthe flexible and emergency nature of refuge provision. Refuge provision is never intended to be a home, and survivors reside there whilst fleeing risk of imminent serious harm or death. Refuge relies on flexible tenancies, such as licences, so that the survivor can be moved on quickly when refuge is no longer appropriate for them. This legislation, they say, has inappropriately treated the emergency accommodation that refuge provides as a home for the purposes of the Renting Homes (Wales) Act.
They strongly believe the Act may break the Welsh violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence refuge system. It has already caused lasting and devastating consequences for survivors and service provision, they state, since its implementation. 'Concerns have been raised on issues such as safeguarding, risk, complexity of residents' tenancy status and additional administration burden on refuge provision, which are already dealing with high demand.' End of quote.
Although they've raised and evidenced their concerns to the Welsh Government, Welsh Government has stated that you do not have a sufficient evidence base for legislative change or public consultation. Prior to the first anniversary of implementation on 1 December, Welsh Women's Aid will be holding a peaceful 'Storm the Senedd' event on 28 November, and they invite Members to come along to show support. I'm then co-sponsoring a drop-in event on 13 December on this issue. So, what discussions have you had, or will you now have with the Minister for Climate Change to address these very real concerns regarding the Act, and will you come to either of these events to hear further about Welsh Women's Aid's concerns?
The report you issued last night notes
'disabled people are nearly three times more likely to experience domestic abuse and yet so many services are still not accessible',
yet the Welsh Government's violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence team are only, quote,
'considering the best method of understanding what steps and measures grant recipients are putting in place to ensure the funded project/s meet the needs of disabled victims and survivors.'
When will this be in place so that effective monitoring can happen? This report references an action plan to meet older people's needs. When will this be in place and how will it be monitored? This report refers to increasing awareness in children and young people of the importance of healthy relationships and that abuse is always wrong. It also refers to the development of a whole-system approach to meet the needs of children and young people impacted by domestic abuse and sexual violence. However, after two decades of talking about this, what specific support and monitoring will be put in place to meet the complex needs of children and young people exposed to domestic abuse and sexual violence?
Finally, although the majority of perpetrators are male, Office for National Statistics figures state that a third of victims of domestic abuse are men and boys. How will the Welsh Government therefore ensure that these victims and survivors can access safe, tailored, specialist support in their own areas?

Jane Hutt AC: Thank you very much, Mark Isherwood. I think it is really important to recognise the role of our national advisers, and I very much welcomed their annual report. They have been established under the provision of the Violence against Women, Domestic Abuse and Sexual Violence (Wales) Act 2015, as you know, and it is important that they have an independent role; they have a key role in advising Welsh Ministers about pursuing the purpose of the Act and tackling related matters. I think what's really important about our national advisers—and I know that not only the committee, but other Members of the Senedd are very well aware of our national advisers, the expertise, the experience and the independence that they provide in those roles, and it is really important that they can provide those reports. Independent, balanced input is what—. You know, under the terms of their appointments, but offering that expertise and advice to us and helping to shape policy development and delivery. And what's really important is that they play a key role in this strategy and the delivery of this strategy. So, they co-chair our work streams and they have been involved in setting up the survivor framework and panel, because they are engaging directly with people with lived experience as a result of their independent role and expertise.

Jane Hutt AC: I think it's also just important to acknowledge the work that's been done, particularly in relation to the objective, objective 3, which is about increasing the focus on holding those who commit abuse to account, supporting those who may carry out abusive or violent behaviour to change their behaviour and avoid offending. Clearly, the report gives an account of what has been done over the past year, and indeed what lies ahead in terms of objectives. It is very important that we have a tackling perpetration work stream, to recognise that we have a perpetrator policy team. It's working with our police and crime commissioners. It is, for example, devising an all-Wales response to conditional cautions for VAWDASV perpetrators in the early-intervention sphere. But what is very important in terms of the work stream is that we're working with partners to develop a map of services to identify the availability of services that work with perpetrators and those who harm, just so that we can better understand the landscape in Wales in relation to behaviour change and activity.
It is important that we look at this from an intersectional perspective, and that's what the work streams and indeed the last meeting of the strategic implementation board, which I co-chair, were discussing. In terms of intersectionality, we are looking at our VAWDASV specialist services in terms of the needs of disabled victims, to ensure that no victim falls through the gaps of service provision, particularly those at higher risk, and that includes older victims as well as disabled people. One point of development that is important is the VAWDASV capital grant fund, which does enable specialist services to adapt their provisions or purchase suitable accommodation, and we have to ensure that the access requirements of disabled people are acknowledged in that provision of capital grant aid.
Objective 2 is all about children and young people, and I've already given an update on the work that's been undertaken to reach out to children and young people, because obviously VAWDASV has such a huge impact on children and young people, and we have a work stream leading on this. But I think it is really important that we are also incorporating understanding and learning. As I've said, I talked about the Spectrum project, which has developed resources for teachers, working in primary schools, but also looking at working with HEFCW, with the Higher Education Funding Council for Wales, about making sure that staff and students are engaged with this, to see how universities and third sector organisations can tackle violence against women within university settings for young people. We now do have our relationships and sexuality education as a statutory requirement in the Curriculum for Wales framework, and it's mandatory for learners.
I'll make a final comment in response to your questions on the Renting Homes (Wales) Act 2016. Just to again clarify for Members, the Act recognises and protects the rights of those living in supported housing, and it follows a significant review of the previous use of licences in a range of settings, including refuges, by the Law Commission. So, the 2016 Act creates a legal basis for supported accommodation, providing similar rights to anyone else living in rented accommodation. I have met with Welsh Women's Aid to discuss these issues. They've raised concerns about the operation of the Act and we do have to look at this, and indeed we have, and I have with my colleague Julie James, the Minister for Climate Change, who's responsible for housing. I think it's about balancing the rights and interests of those living in refuge. So, our officials, together, are discussing with Welsh Women's Aid their concerns relating to the Act.
There are plans to develop comprehensive understanding of the practical impact through the evaluation of the implementation of the Act, and that's currently under way. So, it is right that we gather as much real-world evidence as possible in terms of looking at the impact of the Act. It's also welcome that this is openly shared and scrutinised and that there are meetings being held and discussions being held as well.
I do hope that you will recognise from the report—the report that I'm tabling today—the progress that is being made, and also that we're going to be now publishing quarterly newsletters from our work streams who are engaging, most importantly, in terms of the blueprint. We have got non-devolved and devolved services and authorities working together. Having been involved in this field for many years, right from the start of developing Women's Aid, yes, we have huge responsibilities in devolved services, but unless this can be set in the context of criminal justice responsibilities, particularly in relation to policing and their role, and the Crown Prosecution Service and the courts, we will not make the change that we need to make.
For me, it is a huge frustration and shocking that, as I said, on average, two women a week are killed by a current or former partner in Wales. And, of course, we do look to those victims. We continue to support the Safer Wales Dyn project, which protects and supports all men, including gay, heterosexual, bisexual and transgender men, who have experienced domestic abuse in Wales. And, importantly, the fact that the Dynproject works to enhance safety and increase well-being through a collaborative approach with partners across Wales.

Sioned Williams AS: Thank you for the statement, Minister. The levels of violence and domestic abuse against women are still completely unacceptable, and progress hasn't been sufficient to prevent those misogynistic attitudes that lead to violence and behaviours that cause so much trauma and pain. It continues and remains frustrating, as you may have mentioned there, that we don't have Wales-specific figures because justice is non-devolved, and we can't therefore get that full picture of what's happening in Wales without those figures. Do you agree that without these figures that are specific to Wales it is difficult to properly scrutinise any strategy that helps to tackle violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence, because we can't be certain as to whether the numbers in Wales are improving or not?
We also need a better assessment of the intersectionalities in this report, specifically how does the cost-of-living crisis, for example, impact on how susceptible individuals are to domestic abuse and sexual violence. In light of recent cuts to the social justice budget, can you, Minister, outline whether, and how, those cuts will impact the crucial work that's being done to end violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence in Wales?
What is the Welsh Government doing to ensure that children and young people who are impacted by domestic abuse across Wales can access the specialist services that are so crucial for them, and which may now be under threat because of budgetary cuts?
I'd like to echo the concerns raised on the impact of the Renting Homes (Wales) Act on the provision of refuges. You mentioned in your response to Mark Isherwood that there is an evaluation of some sort being undertaken, and that conversations are happening with providers of refuges and those who support survivors. So, can you tell us when you anticipate that evaluation work being concluded? These concerns are very serious—so serious that Welsh Women's Aid had to come to the steps of the Senedd to make the point once again, having been raising this issue for a year, since the Act came into force. So, if we could have greater assurances as to when we should expect to know about the completion of that evaluation work.
You also mentioned in the statement the work of the Equality and Social Justice Committee that I'm a member of, and its impact on the strategy and the work of the Government in this area. Our recent inquiry has highlighted the need for an inclusive, collaborative approach by the Welsh Government and partners, to outline and prioritise effective prevention programmes for perpetrators that do have that long-term impact on preventing gender-based violence. It's crucial work, isn't it, particularly if we are to prevent this at a population level. It's clear that we need evidence-based guidance for partners to decide what actually works best and for whom. You mentioned that the Welsh Government is looking at this and is trying to build some sort of information data bank in order to provide focus for developing evidence and evaluation. So, again, can we have a timetable for this important work?
And, of course, the challenging financial climate that faces Wales at the moment, this raises questions as to whether there is sufficient funding to assess and evaluate the impacts and outcomes of interventions, such as the perpetrator programmes, effectively. Are they available? Do you agree that this data is crucially important if we are to understand whether the Welsh Government's national strategy and the blueprint approach are effective? Thank you.

Jane Hutt AC: Diolch yn fawr, Sioned Williams. I agree with you completely: it continues to be frustrating that we don't have access to the full data, to understand the nature and extent of VAWDASV in Wales. And, indeed, this is very much part of our work to devolve justice to Wales, and we'll be doing an update, a progress report, on our 'Delivering Justice for Wales', which, of course, was a report by the Counsel General and myself that we issued last year. I'm very much focusing on the fact that we don't have all the tools for the job in terms of tackling violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence. We're using the blueprint approach, as we have done with the youth justice framework and, indeed, the female offending framework, where there's a very strong cross-over between the female offending blueprint and the VAWDASV strategy. We know that so many of the women who are in prison, for example, are survivors, have experienced domestic violence and sexual abuse, but also the trauma that has impacted their lives has included not just domestic violence, but also poverty and often substance misuse. So, it's welcomed again to have that call for that data, which we need. I mean, this should be given to us operationally, let alone in terms of any case we are making for the devolution of justice and devolution of the provision and access to those data sources.
You do make an important point about the impact on women's lives and on the lives of those who we are supporting through our specialist services in terms of the cost-of-living crisis. And it's very much, again, thanks to the Equality and Social Justice Committee and the work that they've undertaken—the brilliant work on migrant women and the situation of migrant women and those with no recourse to public funds—and the fact that we have got BAWSO as a specialist organisation, and I was very pleased to be able to respond directly to that recommendation that we should have a fund to support those who have no recourse to public funds. And it's building on the work that they're already doing, in a pilot with the Home Office. So, just to say, we funded BAWSO for a one-year pilot in Wales. It's actually about learning from the pilot, and there's an evaluation of the Home Office's support for migrant victims scheme, because those are people who would be destitute without that kind of intervention. Migrant women should have access to public funds and not face destitution as a result of their immigration status.
You also raise important points in relation to how we can reach out and deliver for children and young people. The children and young people's work stream is key, and it's looking at socioeconomic issues as well—all aspects of the needs and the impact of VAWDASV on children and young people. I've actually referred to some of the ways in which we're trying to engage and raise awareness of children and young people in schools, and their teachers, the learning environment, up through to higher education. Because this is about early intervention and prevention, actually, to change the way children and young people learn to grow up and respect each other. That children and young people's work stream, I think you're going to now get quarterly newsletters on the work of those work streams. But I think the intervention with children and young people is very important, but also some of the work that's been done, which is highlighted in the annual report—the statutory guidance on keeping learners safe. That's extensive guidance to support education settings on prevention and responding to child sexual abuse. We fund Childline Cymru Wales, we fund the Live Fear Free helpline, and we fund the Meic service.
It was good to actually give evidence as well to the Children, Young People and Education Committee—as well as the Equality and Social Justice Committee—on their inquiry into peer-on-peer sexual harassment amongst young learners, and to see this as very much a cross-Government responsibility in relation to Estyn's report as well, and the recommendations that came from Estyn, working with local authorities in terms of, again, looking at bullying, harassment, information and ensuring schools get those updates on best practice.
We're working with a whole range of stakeholders, and I have mentioned the numbers of children who've gained access, knowledge and awareness and an understanding of VAWDASV. But also, there's the funding that we're giving to Stori Cymru, for example, for the development of resources on relationships and sex education in schools. I think, also, just in terms of early intervention and prevention, I've obviously commented already on the tackling perpetration work stream, but early intervention and prevention and tackling perpetration is key in terms of the six key objectives. It's objective 3, as I've said. And we're focusing on this.
Just to say, on some of those high-level actions, I've mentioned some of the work that's been done directly with policing in terms of conditional cautions for VAWDASV. South Wales Police is the first force area to begin this pilot this autumn, and Gwent's going to follow. We have actually agreed to provide funding. Again, we are funding non-devolved services. We're providing funding for police forces in Wales to unite and utilise the new two-tier conditional caution framework, because we believe that's the right thing to do. But also there is a new domestic abuse protection order being developed in Gwent as a pilot area, and we're very involved, of course, at a four-nations level, working across areas to see the best practice emanating from that domestic abuse protection order.
I think the early intervention also includes all the work we're doing on communications, and you will have seen the launch we had of the Sound campaign. We're identifying those with early harmful behaviours that could lead to further harm, and challenging and supporting people so that we can directly address men and young boys, and that's, of course, where they can become, also, agents of change. We've seen that through Sound, and, then, it's very clear in our White Ribbon campaign. We just have to be very clear that we strengthen accountability mechanisms—and I think that's your key point—to ensure that public services are meeting their responsibilities in terms of early intervention.
I have commented on the renting homes Act, and the fact that I have had discussions directly, one-to-one, with the chief executive of Welsh Women's Aid, and engagement with the Minister for Climate Change, and her officials and advisers, to ensure that we can understand the practical impact of the implementation of the Act, and recognising, again, that this is about rights and interests, as I said, and making sure that we have that kind of independent look at what this could mean in terms of certainly not reducing rights and preventing homelessness as well.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: We have heard from the two spokespersons with their questions, and the responses from the Minister, and we have already gone over our allocated time. And there are six Members who wish to also ask questions. I will call them, but I'm asking you all to keep within your one-minute time limit to ensure everyone can ask their question. And I'm sure the Minister will be applying brevity to her answers equally.

Jack Sargeant AC: Minister, today marks six years since my dad passed away in the most tragic of circumstances. As many in this Chamber will remember, he was a tireless campaigner to end violence against women, securing the passage of the violence against women Bill in this Senedd. He was also a passionate campaigner and supporter for the White Ribbon campaign and its message that it is men that have to change. Deputy Presiding Officer, this message is as important now as it was then. It's why I'm proud to be a White Ribbon ambassador, to support it. Minister, what can the Welsh Government do to build on dad's campaign work, and to ensure that men across Cymru join me and commit to the White Ribbon promise, and mean it?

Jane Hutt AC: Diolch yn fawr, Jack Sargeant. Can I say, and I'm sure I speak on behalf of everyone in this Chamber, that we are with you in our thoughts, our memories of your beloved father and former Minister, who played such a key role? I think we all remember, and as I put on my badge today, the white ribbon with the Welsh flag, it again reminded us. And so our thoughts are with you and your family. But also, I know that Carl would want us to be talking today about what more could be done. He'd be as frustrated as we are that we haven't ended the scourge of violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence. In terms of the White Ribbon campaign—and Joyce is sitting next to you—we start on Monday, and we'll have an event in the Senedd. But I have already highlighted the fact that we have signed up as a Welsh Government, you are an ambassador, and I hope all the men in this Chamber will also play their part during those 16 days of activism.

Jane Dodds AS: Thank you so much, Minister, and thank you to Jack as well. I wish to reaffirm the Minister's gratitude to the national advisers as well, for their work. They drew attention to comprehensive training across all our public services, which they feel is vital to meaningful progress on this really important issue. Mahatma Gandhi said, 'You must be the change you wish to see'. That meant that you can't inspire others to do things if you don't do them first. So, I am calling—and members of my committee will know this—for the Senedd to institute training around violence against women and girls for us as Senedd Members, but also for Commission staff. And I wonder if you would affirm your commitment to ensure that that training and awareness raising is in place. Diolch yn fawr iawn, Dirprwy Lywydd.

Jane Hutt AC: Diolch yn fawr, Jane Dodds. Can I just say that the fact is the change—as Jack Sargeant has said—can come from men, and certainly our elected Members, but from all of us in terms of any responsibilities that we've got? Can I thank you? I hope this will be taken up by the Commission—you've got the Commissioner here today. But the national training framework is the route to this, I believe; it's an e-learning module, it's available to everyone through guest access. It's been accessed by over 100,000 hits since it opened for guest access. And since it opened, in 2015, it's been accessed 314,000 times. So, can I suggest that this is a route in? It's a start, and then, of course, we can go on to the 'ask and act' for public services, and the contract for that is awarded to Welsh Women's Aid. I think you could perhaps follow up both those routes to the training.

Jenny Rathbone AC: I had the privilege to work with Carl Sargeant on the VAWDASV Bill, and I'm sure he would approve of the work that we are doing today to give this such a high priority, as it is absolutely endemic in our society. I thank you for mentioning the work of the Equality and Social Justice Committee; our inquiry is obviously working on the report that we're going to put before the Senedd in due course, so I don't wish to ask about that today. However, the survivor voice scrutiny and involvement panel that you have set up is no doubt echoing some of the thoughts of survivors that we heard from, which really doesn't relate to our work on prevention and early intervention. I'm talking about children who have witnessed or been the victims themselves of serious violence, and the need to ensure that they get support, as appropriate. I know schools do a great job in providing counselling, but sometimes, unfortunately, children need more specialist services, and they need it in a timely fashion. I'm afraid schools often report that, for very troubled children, it is very difficult to get the right supportthrough mental health services, and I just wondered what work is being done to ensure that children get that sort of support in a timely fashion.

Jane Hutt AC: I thank Jenny Rathbone for her question today but also for chairing those inquiries, and we look forward to the outcome of your current inquiry. I've already mentioned the fact that we have a children and young people work stream, and I think this also has a bearing on the indicators. You know that we are now reviewing these national indicators and bringing them up to date with the revised strategy, and within the set of indicators that we have now is increasing awareness among children and young people, for them, that abuse is always wrong. I've mentioned the ways in which we're trying to raise that awareness, but I've also responded to questions about the ways in which we're reaching out to schools, to the teaching profession, and through the curriculum this will make a difference. But I hope that the children and young people work stream in their quarterly reports will give you the encouragement and assurance that we are looking at this very much from the perspective of the child and the young person.

Sarah Murphy AS: I also want to echo everything that everyone said about your dad, Jack. Carl Sargeant very much was a trailblazer in saying that it is men who need to change at a time when nobody was saying that. He led by example, and you continue that legacy.
My contribution today, Minister, is just to say that I really welcome this report. I think that, for all of us, really, on the Equality and Social Justice Committee, many of the things that we've been raising with the Welsh Government have been incorporated: support for migrant women, clarification and information about the different work streams, the intersectionality, housing, children. So, I want to say a huge 'thank you' for that. And I think, from the women I've spoken to who I'm supporting in my constituency at the moment, they have said to me that, when it comes to getting out of that immediate danger to themselves and their children, that that has improved massively in Wales. The support is there, the funding is there. So, I feel that, in Wales, the Welsh Government is holding up its end of the blueprint and is doing as much as it can, but I don't think the UK Government is, because then what happens is that they end up having to go into the legal system and, when they get there, the trauma is continued by how they're treated when they go through that legal system—

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: You need to ask a question now, please.

Sarah Murphy AS: So, I would like to know the discussions that you've had with the UK Government about the report that they came out with in 2020 calling for implementation to make it better for children and mothers going through that situation, because at the moment it is awful and it is described as being the post-separation abuse that continues in family courts. Diolch.

Jane Hutt AC: Diolch. I certainly would like to report back on progress. On that in particular, I haven't—. I can raise this with the domestic abuse commissioner when I next meet her. This is another reason why our national advisers are so important, because they liaise directly as well with the UK Government. But I will follow this up in terms of what amounts to an abuse in terms of prevention and early intervention for children and young people.
But can I just say—and I haven't responded, I'm sorry, Deputy Llywydd—that we have protected our funding, which is really important, for those specialist services that you've mentioned? In these tough times, when we've had to find this money because of the cuts to our budget by the UK Government, I've ensured that we are protecting our VAWDASV funding, particularly for our specialist services.

Joyce Watson AC: I want to pay tribute to Carl Sargeant. I can remember him walking a mile in their shoes, wearing the most ridiculous high heels to make a point, and he did make the point. But I want to thank the Minister. There's a lot to welcome in this report. I won't repeat those, but can you provide further details on the Spectrum project, please, which promotes healthy relationships, particularly the take-up of the training element for school staff and governors? One in five children, we know, witness abuse at home, and the Spectrum project, delivered by Stori Cymru, is an important tool for helping school staff and authorities understand and manage the impact on the child. So, I'm keen to hear how it's being employed.
In the run-up to White Ribbon Day, I shall be engaging with schools in the Ammanford and Gwendraeth area, so I would be happy to promote and signpost them to suitable resources, if you or the education Minister are able to help me with that. And I look forward to hearing more about the progress on taking forward Estyn's recommendations regarding improving the ways schools collect bullying and harassment information, because if we're going to do anything in terms of reducing and ending violence against women and girls, we absolutely have to start with the next generation. I, like you, have been campaigning for 30 years, but the stats are still the same.

Jane Hutt AC: Diolch yn fawr, Joyce Watson, and for your leadership in terms of the White Ribbon campaign. Next Monday, we'll be meeting and paying tribute to the National Federation of Women's Institutes, who have always worked with you, and then with BAWSO we'll be processing up to light a candle at a multifaith service in Llandaff Cathedral.
I've answered some of these questions, but we continue to fund Spectrum. This is a cross-Government commitment, a recognition that we had to look at every line of funding. We continue to fund it. It is actually important to show what healthy relationships—. It's young people learning about healthy relationships, raising awareness of Spectrum, but also it's delivering training for school staff and governors, and all of you who've been governors will know that these are issues that we have to understand. We have to understand this whole-school approach to tackling domestic abuse, and I have mentioned Stori Wales, the Spectrum project. This is about resources, online training, printed material, how we effectively deal with disclosures of VAWDASV from pupils.
We will be following up—. You've seen in the report we've asked local authorities to improve the way they collect bullying and harassment information from schools. They're absolutely at the forefront, and, again, this responds to the points that Sarah Murphy has made. If you read the chapter on children and young people, we have got this children and young people work stream. We didn't have this before. It met earlier this year. It's got a clear plan and it's got people on it with expertise and understanding of the needs of children and young people impacted by domestic abuse and sexual violence. And that, I believe, is a real movement for change, as a result of the way that we're approaching this with the next phase of this strategy, since we did implement—and many of us were here—the most groundbreaking piece of legislation, the first in the UK—the Violence against Women, Domestic Abuse and Sexual Violence (Wales) Act 2015. But we must now make it work for women and victims of violence in Wales.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Finally, Carolyn Thomas.

Carolyn Thomas AS: Diolch. At the animal welfare cross-party group yesterday, we heard from a representative of the Links Group. She said how pets are often used as manipulation, and also that pet abuse can be a sign of child or parent abuse, and we saw some horrific photographs. Pets are so important for comfort and often women will not leave them behind, and we know private rents often do not permit pets and neither do refuges. Has this been a consideration and would you speak to the Minister for housing regarding taking pets into private rented accommodation? Thank you.

Jane Hutt AC: Thank you very much—a very important question. It will be for the Minister for Climate Change, but also the—. I have met with an organisation in Caerphilly, actually, a charity that looks after pets, dogs particularly, if a woman has to flee her home. They can be used in that way, and it's something that we will take back in terms of access to those all-important creatures in a person's life. And, of course, these pets are often really important to the children as well. So, thank you for raising that question.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: I thank the Minister.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Fifty per cent within time, 50 per cent out—we're getting there.

7. Statement by the Minister for Economy: Investment Zones

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Item 7 is a statement by the Minister for Economy on investment zones, and I call on the Minister for Economy, Vaughan Gething.

Vaughan Gething AC: Diolch yn fawr, Dirprwy Lywydd. I am pleased to be able to update Members on the latest discussions with the UK Government regarding investment zones. Three weeks ago I provided an update on the progress we are making to support stronger regional economic development across Wales. In that statement I highlighted the distinct strengths and opportunities in each of our regions and the role that they can play in driving up long-term growth and quality employment in a more balanced economy. It remains the Welsh Government’s firm view that a comprehensive UK industrial strategy backed by macroeconomic policies should be directed at these opportunities, in a model that provides the confidence needed to unlock investment in more secure businesses and jobs.

Vaughan Gething AC: Dirprwy Lywydd, we have been consistent in setting out that a piecemeal approach to regional economic policy at a UK level undermines potential growth opportunities and does not recognise need in a way that tackles poverty. We continue to call for the return of post-EU regional funds to Wales, which would help us to deliver a more coherent regional policy for all parts of Wales.
Despite these challenges, I am pleased with the constructive approach being taken by the current UK Government levelling-up department in developing proposals for investment zones in Wales. This has built on the successful and constructive partnership we established to agree the Welsh free-ports programme. Both programmes can provide real opportunities to bring devolved and reserved levers together to support the Welsh economy across a partnership of equals.
The pragmatic approach that both Governments have adopted has enabled us to ensure that Welsh policy priorities are reflected in the joint approach that we have been discussing over recent months. As with Welsh free ports, we want to make sure that investments contribute to our net-zero ambitions, our duties under the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015, and the promotion of fair work, including trade union access. We will not accept any dilution of workers’ rights within investment zones. This is a vital test of principle and this must add to our economic mission. We have also emphasised the importance of the collaborative regional approach that we have developed across Wales and the need to simplify regional economic development planning and governance through the statutory corporate joint committees that this Senedd has legislated for.
It is important to note the UK Government will still need to make a decision on the support it will provide to investment zones in Wales ahead of or as part of the autumn statement process. However, I can confirm that the Welsh Government Cabinet has met to discuss the proposals that have been in development. As a result, I have written to the Secretary of State at the Department for Levelling Up, Housing and Communitiesfollowing our constructive engagement to indicate our willingness to use devolved levers and expertise to support two investment zones in Wales.
Investment zones policy has, of course, changed significantly since 2022, during the brief Truss and Kwarteng interregnum. The current policy is focused on a small number of high-potential clusters linked to strong research capabilities. There are areas where our comparative strengths can boost wider productivity and economic growth. These outcomes would align with our economic mission and evidence set out by leading expert voices, including the Resolution Foundation, on the need to strengthen comparative advantages within the UK. My officials have worked with UK Government officials on a joint methodology to identify high-potential areas that reflect both UK Government and Welsh Government policy priorities.
As I said, I've discussed this matter with Welsh Government ministerial colleagues as the talks have developed to consider the cross-Government implications and to ensure joined-up decision making. Based on our analysis of opportunities for growth in high-potential clusters, we agree that there is a case for two investment zones in Wales. Our preference is for one investment zone in south-east Wales and one in north-east Wales, covering Flintshire and Wrexham. This reflects the specific sectoral strengths and existing clusters in each region, in particular compound semiconductors in Newport, with a link to Cardiff University and the wider south-east of Wales, and high-value advanced manufacturing in north-east Wales. These sectors in themselves will be integral to the path to stronger economic growth in Wales and the UK as a whole. We want to see more private sector investment in high-quality jobs, skills and productivity.
The identification of potential investment zones is by no means a reflection on the limits of economic opportunities or the need for ambitious investment in other parts of Wales. Investment zones represent just one intervention, and one that would be strengthened if it fell within the broader industrial policy approach that we continue to advocate for. Our proposal arises from an objective judgment based on the specific criteria for investment zones.
The UK Government will now need to decide whether to provide the funding and reserved levers to support investment zones in Wales. For our part, we have indicated a willingness to work towards ensuring devolved and local tax levers are available to investment zones, and to work in partnership with the UK Government on delivering a package of investment support, subject to the agreement of plans from each zone setting out how the support will be used to deliver net benefits for the people of Wales.
Members will be aware that the Welsh Government faces major financial pressures and our willingness to proceed with investment zones in Wales is based on an offer from the UK Treasury that meets the full expected costs of financing each investment zone. This will provide parity with investment zone funding in England.
Despite differences in approach, there is alignment on aspects of economic policy between our Governments, including an ambition to grow high-potential clusters, increase investment in skills, research, innovation and infrastructure, and to support higher levels of productivity and more high-skilled jobs. I intend to set out my economic priorities in a statement to the Chamber on 28 November, which will build upon our economic mission.
If investment zones are funded in Wales, I look forward to working constructively with the UK Government and corporate joint committees to ensure a clear focus for proposed investments to deliver growth, high-quality jobs, skills and increased productivity.Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd.

Paul Davies AC: Can I thank the Minister for his statement this afternoon? I very much welcome the progress being made to secure investment zones here in Wales. The benefits to the business community are clearly evident and the creation of investment zones in Wales can help drive long-term investment and economic growth.I know that many of the levers to establish investment zones lie with the UK Government, but it is important that the Welsh Government is playing a full role in helping to ensure that investment zones are developed here in Wales, and today's statement tells us a bit more about the Welsh Government's role here.
Now, the Minister will be aware of the ongoing inquiry into investment zones by the UK Government's Business and Trade Committee, which is looking at their performance in England. During that inquiry Professor Steve Fothergill made it very clear that, and I quote,
'it is no good just drawing lines around pieces of land on maps and saying, "That is the new investment zone”. The sites have to be ready to go. They have to be up and ready for building developments. The infrastructure has to be in'.
He went on to say that some of the most successful enterprise zones in the past have acquired that status after perhaps a decade of preparatory work turning derelict sites into ready-to-go sites. With that in mind, and given the information in today's statement, it's vital that proposals to create investment zones have the necessary infrastructure and are ready to go.
Now, I appreciate that today's statement confirms a preference for an investment zone in south-east Wales and in north-east Wales covering Flintshire and Wrexham. Therefore, I'd be grateful if the Minister could tell us whether he's confident that these proposals already have the infrastructure in place to become effective investment zones.
Today's statement refers to free ports and yet whilst free ports are built around ports, investment zones are primarily centered around universities. Therefore, it's absolutely critical that universities are not just on board with any proposals, but are at the heart of their development. And so I'd be grateful if the Minister could tell us a bit more about the discussions the Welsh Government has had with universities about the role they can play in driving forward these proposals.
Investment zones provide an opportunity to harness the important role universities and local research institutions play in local growth and supporting levelling up. And so we need to better understand the role the Welsh Government is playing in facilitating that and building networks to ensure that any bids are as strong as possible.
Now, some of the feedback on investment zones in England has suggested that the incentives for businesses just aren't long-term enough. The financial incentives on the investment zones are almost identical to the equivalent financial incentives available in free ports, with the exception of customs duties. But five years is a short amount of time to expect a huge economic impact. It's been argued that economic benefits have largely been greater when financial packages have been made on a longer term basis, like the enterprise zones set up in the early 1990s, where the exemption from business rates was for 10 years.So, perhaps the Minister could tell us whether he believes that these packages should be made available on a long-term basis, so that they can have a much more positive economic impact.
Today's statement states the funding and reserved levers to support investment zones in Wales now rest with the UK Government, but the Welsh Government could use its own levers to build on the current investment package from the UK Government. The Welsh Government could, for example, choose to build on the investment zone programme by immediately extending the business rates holiday for businesses in some of those areas, and so I'd be grateful if the Minister could tell us whether this is something the Welsh Government will be considering in the near future.
Now, job creation is absolutely crucial in developing an effective investment zone. There are concerns about the displacement of jobs when investment zones are created, and it's important that those warnings are taken very, very seriously. The Welsh Government also needs to consider its skills pipeline and work with stakeholders to address any shortages. Therefore, perhaps the Minister could tell us what the Welsh Government would do to mitigate any potential job displacement in the surrounding areas of an investment zone. So, in closing, Dirprwy Lywydd, can I thank the Minister for his statement today, and emphasise that Wales could and should benefit from the investment zone programme? The Minister has indicated that there are two strong bids in Wales, and I hope we see some positive progress regarding the establishment of these zones in the very near future. Diolch.

The Llywydd took the Chair.

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you. I think there are four broad areas of questions there. I'll deal with the universities first. In each part of Wales, we're aware that across corporate joint committees, growth deal areas and within smaller areas people have been talking about this, including with university partners. So, there were potential discussions, I think. I've heard a number of people, I think, in at least five if not six different parts of Wales, who have been told that they have a potential for an investment zone. Some of that has set hares running. I think it's been unhelpful, because there were never going to be five or six investment zones created in Wales. And the offer initially moved from one to a discussion about two being possible in Wales. In the same way then, as in the free ports programme, we started off with a free port that might come to Wales to then reaching agreement for two. So, universities are aware of what the programme requires, and we will now expect, assuming the UK Government agrees with our position on two investment zones, that there would need to be a business case, drawing together those partners, how it's within the corporate joint committee structure—I don't want competing or alternative forms of governance around these—and they'll then need to set out how they'll work alongside the universities to deliver the research and innovation that will be required.
On your second point, I think, about the long-term investment, the proposals for an investment zone in England, as we understand them, are, essentially, £80 million of funding over five years. So, you're right. That is a finite sum of money. The challenge though is whether it will help us to unlock growth in the areas that are being looked at. It's an investment for growth, as opposed to—and this is the choice of the UK Government—as opposed to us saying investment zones will be part of levelling-up economic activity and investing in our least-well-off communities. That is not what the investment zone programme has been conceived for. So, again, this is us finding a way to work with a UK Government policy initiative and to be constructive in doing so. But, on your point around long-term investment, tomorrow, of course, with a slightly different hat on, we'll talk about the long-term investment we're able to deliver with former structural funds in Wales, taking a more coherent regional approach and having a longer term to spend that money. And the learning that we undertook over many years—. And I think, in a previous Senedd, you have been on a committee that's looked at lessons learned from previous structural funding programmes. We think that sort of approach, from a UK Government of whatever shade, to our longer term coherence is the right thing to do to allow us to look more coherently right across Wales where we think there are opportunities, where there's a need to see economic development. Unfortunately, the current design is more piecemeal than we'd like and is more short term than we'd like. We'll talk in detail about the shared prosperity fund and having annual spending deadlines tomorrow.
On your third point around business rates, I see the finance Minister is looming over us in the virtual world, and I will decline your polite suggestion that I attempt to set parameters for the budget that has not yet been set. We need to wait to understand what will happen in the autumn statement on 22 November, whether that will lead to a net increase in funds in Wales, or whether, behind the headlines, we find that our pocket has been picked and it's not quite as generous as the headlines, I'm sure, will be. We need to understand that, and then we need to set a budget right across the whole Government. Any choices around business rates will need to be taken account of after the autumn statement and in the work that the Member, I know, understands is taking place between Ministers now.
And on your final point, part of the reason why we have looked at the north-east of Wales, around Wrexham and Flint and high-value manufacturing, the reason why we've looked at compound semiconductors in particular, based around Newport with a link to Cardiff University and a workforce that already comes from the wider area, including the Valleys, is because we're looking at the potential for growth, we're looking at where there is already established infrastructure and an established understanding of what's possible, and also to try to counteract the potential for businesses to be attracted to move and to displace activity—it has always been one of our concerns about free ports and about investment zones.
So, choosing established centres that already exist is partly what underpins our rationale that we should not, for example, try to undertake a new compound semiconductor cluster in Ceredigion. Whilst the Presiding Officer may think that's a wonderful idea, that is unlikely to see significant growth, and it's much more likely to see displacement, if people could be persuaded to go there for that purpose. So, we're focusing on areas where we know there's established activity and the potential to grow more.

Luke Fletcher AS: Thank you for the statement, Minister.

Luke Fletcher AS: I'd start by saying that it is important that these zones fully serve the interests and aspirations of the communities and people of the regions that they'll be established in. Previous experience has shown that without robust oversight and strategic clarity such place-based initiatives end up being exploited by multinationals for tax purposes without delivering tangible benefits in terms of local skills development and productivity gains. For example, the enterprise zone programme spearheaded by George Osborne fell far short of its ambitions for job creation. While the Treasury initially predicted in 2011 that the creation of the zones would lead to 54,000 new jobs by 2015, subsequent analysis in 2017 showed that five years of the programme had delivered only 17,500 jobs, of which at least a third were jobs that had been relocated from other parts of the UK.
The disastrous free ports policy of the Thatcher Government, which was eventually put out of its misery by the Tories in 2012, had a similar record of underdelivering for the local economies for which it was designed. And the eight enterprise zones created by the Welsh Government in 2012 have fared little better. The report of the then Economy, Infrastructure and Skills Committee in 2018 concluded that the original aims of the enterprise zones policy in Wales, to create growth and jobs, had not been achieved across the board, while also expressing misgivings at the lack of regular performance-tracking data.
Now, I do sincerely hope that the Government, therefore, has learned from its previous venture into enterprise zones and has incorporated some of those lessons learned from previous failures. Wales has witnessed far too many false dawns when it comes to economic strategies. So, how will the Government learn from those lessons, and what’s to say that we won’t be in the same position again, where delivery falls short of ambition? Will we also be given the regular data, highlighted by the then Economy, Infrastructure and Skills Committee, to be able to then scrutinise the performance and track the performance of these new enterprise zones, so as to hold the Government to account?
Now, I think that it’s important for us to consider the additionality factor as well in this—so, the extent to which place-based investment policy can actually drive growth at source, as opposed to simply redirecting economic development that would have happened elsewhere anyway, as has already been highlighted by the Tory spokesperson. This has also been a concern of mine with the proposals for free ports.
Now, I understand the Minister’s answer in response to the Tory spokesperson around choosing established centres. But I don’t think that it fully explains what the Government is doing to mitigate the potential problem of relocation. So, how much thought has been given to it, and what are the specific mitigation policies that the Government have in place? Because I think that it is important that we not only mitigate displacement, but monitor it throughout the life of these enterprise zones.
Of course, we welcome that the Government will not accept any dilution of workers’ rights. I would appreciate it, though, if the Minister could set out exactly how the Government will guard against the dilution of workers’ rights. What exactly are the mechanisms for monitoring and then taking action if there is an infringement?
Finally, Llywydd, we should ensure that the commercial incentives for attracting businesses do not unduly favour larger corporations at the expense of domestic enterprise. I have been clear for some time that supporting growth in our SME sector, and ensuring that domestic firms are resilient, competitive and dynamic, is vital as a means of reinvigorating our economy. Now, every effort should therefore be made to ensure that local SMEs are active shareholders in the establishment of such zones, and that the value of investment zone opportunities is not determined by the size of participating firms. So, in that sense, how does this factor into the Welsh Government’s strategy to support Welsh SMEs?

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you for the comments and questions. I'll deal first with the point around fair work. We've been really clear that we expect this to be part of any business case that is provided to us. It would also include some of the points you've also covered around the starting base of economic activity, around on the tax sites, which businesses would be there, the form of activity that takes place, and having metrics on growth so we can all understand whether this really is going to deliver growth. Part of the challenge is that, as I said in response to Paul Davies and also in my statement, this is a UK Government initiative, where our choice is whether we're prepared to work with it to try to find a way where it can potentially meet our objectives too, or whether we're prepared to have a position where either an investment isn't made or the UK Government simply work around us, using reserved levers only. I think this is the right choice and it is a pragmatic choice, where we obviously want to see more growth in the economy. We want to see more high-quality jobs available, not fewer. We also want to see economic growth in areas outside investment zones, where there is a real need to see greater economic activity.
On your point around wider supply chains, in particular small and medium-sized businesses, we again would expect to see some of that taken up in not just the business planning, but actually what our expectation will be about how we work with business that operate in those sites. So, I'd want to see people signing up to an economic contract. I'd want to see how they actually look at building a supply chain within that area. And there are already good examples of that: for example, GE and Airbus—one in south Wales, one in north Wales—both having significant supply chains, significant value, and they look very carefully at the robustness of their supply chains and how localised they are. They've both done work in the last few years in trying to make sure they understand where their suppliers come from and they make a point of understanding how they invest in their local economy. That actually helps them with their own workforce as well as with other firms and the wider economic impact and value. I'm keen to see an approach that builds on that as well.
On your point around place-based investment, I think it certainly does have a role. It absolutely has a role in the future. We've undertaken place-based investments in a whole range of areas. It's part of the reason we're having conversations with economic regions about where and how to invest, and I'll give you two examples—no, three examples. If you think about manufacturing, we have invested in the advanced manufacturing research centre; we've invested alongside other partners to want to try to anchor more economic activity in that area. We actually need to make sure that more businesses, right across north-east Wales and nationally, understand what they can get from that and, for example, our support for an advanced technical research centre in north-east Wales as well. We're building on an area of established strength. In south Wales, semiconductors are another example of where we want to see specific activity targeted and crowded in in an area of existing strengths. And the third one, where we have done something novel in the last two terms, is the global centre for rail excellence. It's a pleasure to see my predecessor as economy Minister in the Chamber today, because, at the time, I don't think everyone believed that would be successful, and yet, actually, there is real cause for optimism about its future. It's a deliberate choice to intervene in a particular area, and I think there is every reason to believe that it will be successful. If the Government had not done that, then we would not have seen that intervention take place there, and I do think we will see a better economic future for that part of Wales as a direct result.
And, finally, on your point on the challenge must be to grow not to displace jobs, that is very much what I am interested in. Of course, it was interesting that Paul Davies mentioned the same point. That again is why we are looking to build on comparative areas of strength and to build on those areas of comparative strength that are already established in Wales, as opposed to looking to attract them into one corner of Wales from the rest of the country. I think the proposal we've set out gives the best prospect of doing that.

Mike Hedges AC: I very much welcome the statement today. It is positive that the current policy is focused on a small number of high-potential clusters linked to strong research capabilities. The danger always is that you end up pepper potting and nothing ever comes out of it.
The Minister's right—there are areas where our comparative strength can boost wider productivity and economic growth. Industries capable of substantial growth include ICT, life sciences, finance and professional services, and these are not geographically constrained. If we aim to succeed in these sectors we need to learn from western Europe and north America and the cities and regions within those that are being hugely successful in those areas.
As someone representing part of the Swansea Bay city region, I'm disappointed that the intention is only two zones—one in south-east Wales and one in north Wales. But, that is what it is. Does the Minister agree that it is important to use universities in Wales as centres to drive innovation and investment, with universities creating science and innovation parks, so that we can be as successful as other areas in Europe and North America?

Vaughan Gething AC: 'Yes' is the short answer. To be fair, Mike Hedges regularly makes the point about the value and the importance of universities as part of our research and innovation infrastructure and the ecosystem that we're looking to develop. He made similar points, indeed, when we were talking about the launch of the innovation strategy, and he's right to do so. Our challenge is how we make sure that we have an environment where that success is delivered, through research, and applied then into economic value and benefit. And I actually think that part of this is the key importance of the statement that I made a few weeks ago on a coherent approach to economic development, working with regions as partners and understanding the particular strengths that exist within those regions, some of which will, of course, be contained within the relevant university sector.

Jack Sargeant AC: Minister, I particularly welcome your comments on a previous question around the Advanced Technology Research Centre and your support for that. Turning to this statement, you'll be fully aware of the number of times I've spoken in this Chamber about the challenges we face in achieving net zero, the role that advanced manufacturing has to play in terms of innovation and driving productivity rates. You've also referred in your statement to the importance of key players, like Airbus, like the AMRC, who are already demonstrating that. This could go further and be boosted further by the delivery of an investment zone—and I welcome your support for calls for an investment zone in the north-east of Wales—with an embedded skills and training centre to help further deliver the next generations of skills. I wonder, with your support for one situated in Flintshire and Wrexham, what conversations you could have with stakeholders like Airbus and other companies around the constituency to support their calls at a UK level.

Vaughan Gething AC: I'd be very happy to have a conversation with Airbus about any proposals that they are developing with partners for a dedicated skills and training centre. My understanding and outline is that they're not looking for something that is only for Airbus, but has a wider reach and impact. That is one of the things we want to see from our anchor companies, to have a broader impact than their own businesses, and we have worked constructively with Airbus individually and, indeed, with the UK Government on making cases for investment. It's a really good example of an area where there is a business with lots of work, high-quality work, that requires a continued investment in skills, and our challenge is how we continue to make sure that more people are aware of the opportunities, not just in Airbus and the wider supply chain, but the wider impact that it can have, especially within the high-value manufacturing sector, and, of course, the associated areas of engineering and more. So, I'd be more than happy to take forward that constructive conversation with Airbus and the region.

Alun Davies AC: I'm grateful to the Minister for his statement this afternoon. I wanted to speak this afternoon, because I'm interested in what the statement says about Welsh economic policy. Whilst I would welcome the statement as far as it goes in terms of the development and the investment zones that the Minister has announced today, I'm interested in where that leaves us in terms of the overall approach to policy.
The Minister may have answered the question, actually, in answer to the Conservative spokesman when he said that he was going to focus on areas where there is potential for growth. Now, that's been a policy of Welsh Government before and it's directed Welsh Government funding and Welsh Government support for business to the north-east and the south-east. What it hasn't done is directed Government funding and support into areas of poverty and areas where there is already a significant market failure. Now, I would argue that an interventionist Government should have a different approach, should have an approach to economic policy that corrects market failure, that puts public funding and taxpayers' resources into those communities that need it most, not simply into those areas where there is low-hanging fruit, where the greatest results can be achieved from a minimum investment. The market's already doing that. So, my question to the Minister is this: how will this approach benefit those communities where the market is not delivering investment, where there isn't the same potential for growth and where the poverty is greater?

Vaughan Gething AC: I think I'd say two broad things. The first is that, as I've tried to set out in my statement, investment zones and the free-port policy are not the sum total of what this Government wants to see delivered. We're dealing with interventions from the UK Government, their policy initiatives, and we're having to make choices about whether we wish to find a way that we can live with those policy interventions in Wales with the use of devolved levers, or whether we wish to leave the UK Government to try to do something entirely separately with reserved powers.
I think, though, one of the points is something about tone, as well. We shouldn't be shy about wanting to support growth and growth sectors. The difference is, though, that you can't just say it will happen where it happens, and I think this is where I certainly do agree with the Member. You both want people to be able to access that work and look at what is a wider travel-to-work area, you also want to deliberately intervene in areas where there is not significant economic activity. That, for example, is thinking about the Member's own constituency, not just the productivity support we've provided to businesses in Blaenau Gwent, but the fact that we've supported property developments to allow more areas to found work in Blaenau Gwent and other Valleys regions to make sure that economic activity does take place. That intervention in a market that would not otherwise create those opportunities is really important.
So, for me, it is still about understanding the need for a coherent approach to regional economic development and understanding that we need to understand what can work and will work in each of the regions of Wales. There will always be a need and a role for Government to intervene to make sure we don't simply have two corners of Wales that perform relatively well compared to the rest of Wales, but actually we can't then leave the rest of Wales to its fate. That is not the view of this Government, that is not our policy, and I hope what I was able to set out three weeks ago on regional economic development gives the Member some comfort that we're serious about that.

Ken Skates AC: Minister, on behalf of Members across parties in north Wales, can I thank you for this announcement today? You have already delivered for the people of north-west Wales with the agreement over the free port, which is immensely important for the economy of Anglesey and Gwynedd, and right across northWales for that matter. Today, you've delivered for the communities of north-east Wales with the announcement of a successful bid by regional partners there to help ensure that Wales, along with the south-eastern cluster, can continue to keep apace with those sectors where we are strongest.
I think this demonstrates, and would you agree this demonstrates the value of collaboration, both across political parties and across institutions as well? Would you also agree that it reflects the carefully considered work of partners in north-east Wales who have worked so collaboratively over the past few months? There are many people to thank for that work, but, in particular, would you agree that this process demonstrates the incredible value of Wrexham council and Flintshire council working so closely together? Minister, finally, would you also agree that we now need swift agreement from the UK Government over the two zones along with assurance that equivalent funding will be made available to those zones as is happening across the border in England? Diolch.

Vaughan Gething AC: Diolch. Thank you for the kind words. Understanding what it's possible to do and to achieve and understanding how to deliver growth in a way that actually still aligns with what we want to do with our existing economic ambition has been really important in the choices that we have made. There are a number of people who have made real progress in working together within regions. It's not perfect, it doesn't happen by accident, you need people to be able to sit down together, to find areas of agreement and not always to search for areas of disagreement. We're seeing more progress on that in each of the regions in Wales. The north Wales growth deal, the economic ambition board, is chaired by the leader of Gwynedd, and yet we're announcing today an intervention that will be founded in Wrexham and Flintshire, but will still have a relationship to what they want to do across the whole of north-east Wales. It's one of the priorities in the north Wales plan to actually see an even better future for high-value manufacturing.
When I was in the Member's constituency recently, we met a number of high-value manufacturers—I'm thinking about Kronospan and the other people we met when we were there. So, I'm optimistic about there being an existing area of strength, and one of the things that we're committed to doing is to carry on working with partners to keep partners together moving forward. The UK Government are part of this and they need to carry on being a constructive partner in this area. I wish some of the same constructiveness were available in other areas of activity with the UK Government that we've seen in some of the areas we're able to discuss today. I'm very clear that we would not be proceeding with an investment zone anywhere in Wales were it not for the commitments we have secured on funding parity for investment zones in Wales compared to England, and I look forward to a swift decision on investment zone proposals to allow all of us to move forward together.

Carolyn Thomas AS: Businesses and the public sector in north-east Wales, they'd focused on advanced manufacturing, but also the creative and digital industries. I see so much potential for north Wales in this emerging fast-growing industry. We’ve got Theatr Clwyd, Wrexham Glyndŵr and the colleges working together, but collaboratively, they could add bulk strength for bids. You did not mention creative and digital; you only mentioned advanced manufacturing and high-value manufacturing. Is that just an omission on your behalf, or is that something that you’re hoping you can bring to that area too?

Vaughan Gething AC: I think it's a fair question that the Member asks, and certainly it's helpful to clarify again: we're looking for a particular mission around investment zones to build on an area of comparative strength. This isn't a whole regional economic development plan; it is looking at one area with one particular set of economic opportunities that we think exist there. Actually, we continue to see growth in the creative sector, and this proposal won't stop the growth taking place in the creative sector. You're right: there are significant opportunities right across Wales. It's one of the things that the growth deal are looking at, about how to further support the growth of the creative sector, and this won't stop that from happening, and it's the point I've been trying to make—both in response to Alun Davies and others—that the two investment zone proposals should not be seen as the sum total of what we want to see happen and what we're prepared to support. That support from myself and the Deputy Minister for the continuing opportunities in the creative sector are things that we will return to and you can expect to see us carry on supporting that sector, and it is—as you rightly point out—a success story already. It, I think, though, highlights that investment zones themselves are able to do some things but not everything, which is why we still need a coherent approach to regional economic development that can only be done by working with partners.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: I thank the Minister.

8. Statement by the Minister for Economy: Recognising the contribution events make to Wales

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: The next item was meant to be the statement on events. That item has been postponed.

9. Statement by the Minister for Economy: Tata Steel

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: So, the next item will be item 9, a statement once again by the Minister for Economy on Tata Steel. Vaughan Gething.

Vaughan Gething AC: Diolch yn fawr, Llywydd. On 15 September, Tata Steel and the UK Government announced a joint agreement on a proposal to invest in electric arc furnace steel making at the Port Talbot site, with a capital investment of £1.25 billion, including a grant from the UK Government of up to £500 million.
In my statement to Members at that time, I highlighted the Welsh Government’s concerns, while welcoming the signalled investment in the future of the steel industry in Wales. In particular, I highlighted the potential impact of such a deal not only on the workforce and the industry, but on the local economy, the wider supply chain and those communities who rely upon steel. Llywydd, we have stressed the anxiety that this would cause for workers and families in many parts of Wales and made clear that it was essential that Tata conducts a meaningful consultation with its employees through their recognised trade union representatives about their proposals.
Members will be aware that last week, on 1 November, there was widely reported speculation that Tata planned to announce its intention to close entirely the heavy end of operations at Port Talbot, including the closure of both blast furnaces by the end of March 2024. This would lead to thousands of job losses. Subsequently, Tata Steel did not make a formal announcement following their board meeting in Mumbai.This has left thousands of workers and their families, in Tata Steel and across the wider supply chain, facing an uncertain future in the run-up to Christmas. The communities in which these steel plants are located, in some of the least well-off parts of the UK, will also be anxious and concerned.
On 1 November, I spoke, at their request, with the local Members for Port Talbot and the steel trade unions, who all voiced their huge concern over this potential announcement. I also spoke with senior representatives from Tata Steel UK. During these meetings, I stressed the importance of proper consultation with the recognised trade unions and full consideration of the report into alternative options that the trade unions are preparing with Syndex, who are a specialist consultancy with expertise in the steel sector.
The Welsh Government is committed to supporting a just transition to net zero in a way that aligns with our Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015. We're concerned not only about the impact on employees and communities, but also to avoid offshoring our emissions from Wales to other parts of the world. Emissions from production and transport need to be considered as part of any assessment. Both the First Minister and I have had further dialogue with the company and steel unions this week. I will, of course, continue to keep lines of communication open. We stand ready to do everything within our power to support those affected at this time, and I reiterate my calls for the UK Government to work with us more closely. I have, of course, written again to the Secretary of State for Business and Trade, seeking an urgent meeting to discuss the matter and how our two Governments might be able to work together.
Llywydd, our focus is on the interests of the many thousands of Tata employees, their families, the wider communities and all those involved in working with and supporting the five Tata facilities in Wales. Their contribution to our economy is totemic, bringing with it a truly global reach. From electric vehicles and wind turbines to tins of beans and new homes, steel is the thread that will run through the economy of today and tomorrow. It matters to growth, security, net zero and the UK’s place in the world. Our long-standing commitment to the sector is based upon these realities. We will go on making the case for a stronger, greener sector, capable of capturing the enormous opportunities that could be won here in Wales. Thank you, Llywydd.

Paul Davies AC: Can I thank the Minister for his statement? I share the Minister's disappointment that a statement has not been forthcoming from Tata on its restructuring plans in the last week, and therefore, I urge the Minister to work as constructively as possible with the business until we know more about its current position and its specific plans for the future.
The Minister is right to say that workers and their families in Port Talbot are understandably anxious and concerned about what the future holds for them, and I agree that there needs to be far greater engagement between Tata and its workers. The Minister has said that he has spoken directly to senior representatives about his concerns, and perhaps he could tell us what sort of response he received from them. There is a critical need for Tata to communicate more openly with its workforce and the Welsh Government needs to objectively understand why the company has chosen to engage in the way that it has so that it can help ensure that any consultation process going forward is meaningful and there is a genuine interaction between the business and its workforce.
According to some reports, Tata executives have warned that its UK operations are losing more than £1 million a day, and I'm sure the Minister will acknowledge that this is not sustainable in the long term. I'd be grateful if the Minister could tell us what the Welsh Government's own economic assessment of the business and its operations in Wales actually is and what does the future of Tata Steel in Wales look like for the Welsh Government.
It goes without saying that Tata is a hugely significant employer, and I'm sure we all agree that the business model will undoubtedly have to change going forward in order to decarbonise its operations. I know the Minister has previously said that he's working with the finance Minister to see what can be done to further strengthen Welsh procurement, which will hopefully give our steel industry more opportunities. So, I'd be grateful for any update he has on that work to strengthen procurement opportunities, as well as outlining what opportunities have been found or are at least in the pipeline for UK-produced steel.
Llywydd, we need to remember that the Port Talbot site is the biggest single emitter of carbon dioxide in the UK, and so it is understandably under pressure, as I said earlier, to move to greener, less carbon-intensive forms of steel making. Indeed, the Welsh Government has always asserted that its focus is to explore all avenues to secure a successful low-carbon future for Welsh steel, and today's statement reaffirms that.
It's a fact that our lives rely on good-quality steel: steel to make bridges, pipelines and cars. Even some renewable energy generation relies on steel. Therefore, perhaps the Minister could outline what offers of support, if any, the Welsh Government has made to help the business on its decarbonisation journey.
The Minister has said that there are institutions in Wales that could take part in the research and development of the electric arc steel making, as well as using hydrogen more in the process. We need the Welsh Government to tell us more about exactly what work they want to see take place here and how that research and development work should be funded. Is this an area where the Welsh Government is planning to make some substantial investment, and if so, how much is that? Of course, at the heart of this is a need for partnership and parties to come together—Tata as a business, both the UK and Welsh Governments, and the workforce too.
In closing, Llywydd, can I thank the Minister for his statement today? Again, I reiterate my support to help Tata decarbonise and produce steel in a much greener way in the future. I would also like to reiterate how crucial it is for Tata to now properly and appropriately communicate with its workers as soon as possible, in order to minimise the anxiety and concerns felt by the employees and, indeed, by the whole community. Diolch.

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you for the comments and questions. I'll start with the Member's question about conversations with senior Tata representatives. The First Minister and I met with senior representatives from Tata today. We discussed again not so much wanting a blow-by-blow account of what happened last week, but to understand the impact of what happened last week, to recognise that is still very much there. It has not gone away. People are not unconcerned now. The nature of the briefing that was delivered was detailed, and people are still anxious about their jobs and their future at probably the worst time in the year.
Tata have made clear that they wish to see the Syndex report, with its recommendations, to understand if there are alternative proposals to deliver a decarbonisation journey for steel production at Port Talbot. That is an ask that the trade union side have been making. It's positive that they say they're going to wait for that report to be provided—I understand it is imminent—and we would then want to see genuinely meaningful consultation take place. There would need to be time for that report to be discussed, so that does not mean the triggering of the legal process, because that would require Tata to have firm proposals for job changes. We think that there would be a need to discuss the viability of any alternative proposals that may come from that Syndex report, and it's important that the time is available to do so.
That may also deal with one of his other questions about the financial assessment of the company. The Welsh Government hasn't undertaken a forensic analysis of the financial assessment of the company. We're not in a position to do that. But we are interested, of course, in the future of the sector, the future for workers, and the future of communities, and the understanding that we will need lots more steel in our future.
You talked about emissions—the emissions of steel produced in Port Talbot today compared to how steel might be produced in the future. If we see steel that is imported into the UK, we would also want to understand the emissions cost of that steel, wherever it is produced, as well as the transport cost of that steel from other parts of the world to the UK. So, it's important not to get carried away and think there is a single sum to be undertaken here about the journey to decarbonisation, which the steel trade unions and steel employers recognise has been necessary. That was a conversation that I had on becoming the economy Minister. I know that's a conversation that's taken place during my predecessor Ken Skates's tenure as well. So, we want to see a genuinely just transition that does not offshore jobs and emissions to other parts of the world.
I think it's also worth pointing this out in finishing. In all of the challenges we have, the investment proposal that was made for electric arc involved Tata and the UK Government investing in a different future. We have always said that we understand that greater electric arc steel making is part of the answer, but want to see all other technology answers looked at—so, direct reduced iron as an alternative as well, when that might be possible. In all of these futures, though, the willingness of the UK Government to continue to act as a stakeholder, to continue to act as someone who is prepared to invest in the future, particularly if that delivers a path where you can see a net reduction in emissions, including how emissions might be offshored, to continue to see a future for large numbers of workers who might otherwise lose their jobs, is part of the discussion we need to have, with an openness from the UK Government to do so.
And it's fair to say that it's not just a conversation that I have been seeking to have with different UK Ministers. Again, I recognise the Finance and Local Government Minister, who's on the screen—with each of the different Chief Secretaries to the Treasury that she's had to deal with, she has been a consistent advocate for the UK Government to act to support and invest in the future of steel making. You may not hear that reported very often, but I know that is part of the conversation we have. And indeed the climate change Minister has similar conversations with her counterparts as well. So, the view of the Welsh Government is very clear and unambiguous, and we hope that the UK Government will continue to be an active partner who are willing to look again at what they're prepared to do to invest in the future, because I think there's real reason to think that there are good days ahead for steel making and its use here in Wales and beyond.

Luke Fletcher AS: Just over a month ago, we learnt, as had been suspected for some time, that the UK Government's deal with the owners of Tata Steel is likely to come at the steep price of 3,000 jobs lost, with the vast majority affecting the plant in Port Talbot. Members across this Chamber will be well aware of the devastating implications of this scenario to the local community, which, despite having supplied generations of workers to the plant, has long had to contend with the state of existential uncertainty that has surrounded the Welsh steel industry for many years. What's been going on will no doubt increase feelings of anxiety for many.
What has been particularly distressing, though not surprising given the contempt of this UK Government towards workers, is the fact that trade unions and their representatives were shut out from the negotiations from the start. This is the same shoddy treatment of workers that we've seen continue over the past two months while Tata have been ironing out the finer points of detail for implementing this deal, and that was on show just last week. There's widespread agreement amongst the unions for the need to decarbonise the industry and to harness Wales's potential as a hub for the green industrial evolution, but as I've stressed many times, the transition to this outcome that we all want to see must be just, and I reject the underlying premise to this deal that installing the necessary technology has to involve some kind of trade-off, with Welsh workers invariably having to shoulder the costs.
As the Community union has rightly pointed out, there is a degree of hypocrisy to Tata's position on the green transition, given that it's threatening to close its operations in Wales without this package of support for the installation of the new electric arc furnaces, while continuing to export blast-furnace-manufactured steel from non-green sites in India and the Netherlands. Ultimately, if we continue down this route, we'll have dirtier steel, thereby offshoring carbon emissions in the process.
Electric arc furnaces have a role to play, but as a technology, it's just one cog in a complex machine. Hydrogen is a long-term solution, direct reduced iron a quicker stepping stone. The Secretary of State for Wales appeared before ETRA—the Economy, Trade and Rural Affairs Committee—which was also joined by a member of the climate change committee, and he did not believe that hydrogen was worth investing in, as it wasn't commercially viable. What would be the view of the Minister on this? I found it to be quite a shocking attitude, particularly because the implication is that it is not the role of state to develop strategic resources unless it's commercially viable for private business. Perhaps this is why we need to think of alternative models of industrial ownership in Wales, because here's the reality: it's been put to me several times that Tata is a private company, and if it's not making profit in Port Talbot, then people can't expect it to continue to operate there. I'd accept that premise if we were talking about a company that was producing luxury goods, but that's not what we're talking about here, is it? What we're talking about here is a strategic resource.
It speaks volumes about the lack of agency that we have in Wales over our economy that decisions on the future of one of the most important manufacturing operations in the country were made behind closed doors by the UK Government and a multinational firm. Instead of accepting the status quo, whereby the status of so many Welsh jobs are inherently beholden to the commercial interests of parties that aren't even based in Wales, we must strive for better alternatives, such as supporting the proliferation of co-operatisation, ensuring that when critical industries are put at risk by corporate restructuring or reprioritisation there is a robust framework in place for workers to take over the management of operations, and thus maintain their presence in Wales. And this isn't, of course, theoretical thinking: it's exactly what's been done in the Basque Country. So, I would be interested in the Minister's thoughts on this beyond, and with respect, saying, 'We simply can't afford it', because if we don't take stepsto safeguard the steel sector here in Wales, then the costs in the future will be far higher. And I'm not expecting him to say, to be fair, 'We'll do something tomorrow', but surely we need to start thinking. This isn't sustainable and we need to seriously think about the future.
I'll end, Llywydd, by saying that, in this instance, credit where it's due. The Welsh Government, and in particular the Minister, I know have been proactive in trying to secure the future of the site. I know that through the work of the cross-party group on steel, and that's why I'm genuinely reaching out here for us to work together, to develop a new future for the sector together. What I fear we are seeing here, actually, is a UK Government with zero ambition for the steel sector, not just in Wales but across the UK as well, and that will be to the detriment of our communities and future generations, if we don't show the ambition now and that we don't get this right now.

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you for the comments. I think there were many areas where there was consistency in my statement and, indeed, my response to questions from Paul Davies—the points around a generally just transition; the need to have meaningful consultation with trade unions; to take seriously the Syndex report that we understand is imminent; to understand the reality of emissions footprints. If you propose to, long term, create steel in other parts of the world, through a blast-furnace process, and to import it here, we need to understand what that looks like. We also need to understand the opportunities for alternative technologies as well, and how close they are to being mature.
The challenge in all of this is, and, with respect, I think the Secretary of State for Wales—it's not his specialist area, but I don't think it is fair to say that there is no future for hydrogen. Actually, the alternative investments are being undertaken, and if you don't invest in what those will look like, then you'll never know yourself. It's part of the reason why—it wasn't me that did it; I think it was, again, my predecessor Ken Skates, who invested money in a metals institute in Swansea University, to look at the ways in which you can produce metals, how you can produce the grades and the quality of them as well. And that does actually matter, and that's involved partnership, with Tata investing in doing so.
I would say, though, that within all this, we still come back to the challenge of UK Government investment. How much are they prepared to invest in the future and what is their expectation for what that investment will deliver? Because within this, we need to recognise that steel is a strategic asset not just for Wales but for the whole of the UK. And you can't undertake a strategic UK asset without considering the volume and the quality of steel making here in Wales. The news from Scunthorpe yesterday really matters, and it should matter to all of us, because the same broad proposal to move from blast-furnace production to electric arc doesn't just mean that thousands of other workers are worried for their jobs—and I think all of us should be concerned about that too—but, from a UK point of view, it potentially means that primary steel making would not exist. That then means we'd be reliant on other parts of the world for all of that primary steel making, and that's part of the challenge. There is a big strategic choice for the UK Government. It's why the choices they make really do matter above and beyond the workforce in Port Talbot; they'll matter to what we are able to do here in Wales and across the UK.
If you think about future opportunities, we need to think—. You'll need plate steel to deliver some of the renewable opportunities. We don't currently make that anywhere in the UK. Actually, that would require a UK Government to be prepared to talk with the sector and to understand how it can strategically invest, to deliver that capability. And then there's an opportunity not just for the UK but for beyond as well, and that's the conversation I want to be able to have with the UK Government. I would like to have that conversation with the current UK Government. I think I would have that conversationif there were a Labour Government in place. The difficulty is, can we wait until a general election, or will those choices already have been made? I think it's my duty to try to work with the current UK Government to get the best possible deal for Wales. And that's what I'm prepared to do, regardless of our difference, because that is what I think workers deserve, and I think it's what the people of Wales deserve.

David Rees AC: Minister, can I thank you for your statement, but more importantly thank you for your speedy response last week, when we heard the reports and the discussions we had on Wednesday afternoon?The bombshell that we heard from that report was devastating for the workforce, their families and the communities in and around Port Talbot, who rely upon the income from the jobs there. And it's not just the 3,000 that we talked about, because they're talking about mothballing the hot mill and the continuous casting plant. That's jobs being lost for four years, if steel making comes back. That's the contractors and all the suppliers going as well, and all the businesses that rely upon those men and women working there. It's a huge impact and let's be blunt: we've talked about a just transition, and I agree with you—we need a just transition—but this is not a just transition, it's a closure. It's a closure of those plants and, if we're lucky, they might decide to actually build an arc furnace, because that's not guaranteed at this point in time. They're just simply talking about closing the plants in March 2024, and four years probably before anything happens. Those men have gone. Those women have gone. There are no skills there. It really is a threat of closure for the town.
So, I'm conscious of my time and I'm conscious of what I say often to Members, but it's important I think that yesterday's announcement, which highlights the loss of steel making in the UK, basically—primary steel—is also included here. It's important we get the message to Tata and the UK Government, and I want you to send this strong message that we want a just transition, unions want a just transition. They accept the move to green steel, they accept the changes, but what they are offering at the moment is not that, and we've got to keep pressing the message that that is what we want. You mentioned alternatives. We want the alternatives, we want direct reduced iron furnaces, we'll take the electric arc furnaces, but it has to be focused on consultation with the unions, not simply communication. It's got to be consultation and meaningful consultation with the unions. Will you make sure that that message gets through to them, please?

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you, David. And I thank him for his early morning message to me last week requesting a meeting. Look, David Rees has been a consistent supporter for steel. You'd expect him to be with his constituency and being the chair of the cross-party group. And the points he makes are points that have come up in conversation with steel trade unions, and, indeed, with Tata—the need for a just transition, to consider the reality of emissions and whether we're simply offshoring our emissions or not; the need to consider what a just transition looks like in terms of workers and their jobs, and that can only come from meaningful consultation with the recognised steel trade unions, and the reality that, actually, it's a transition to the future where we will continue to need steel. And the strategic choice that not just Tata need to make about their business, but the UK needs to make is: are we prepared for a future where primary steel making is not something the UK undertakes? Are we prepared to buy into a future where we constantly have to import from other parts of the world? Importing that steel to be rolled here may happen for the medium term, but the challenge is, for the longer term, does that allow us to do what a modern economy should be able to do to undertake all those opportunities, or will we give away the opportunity to make our own strategic choices? I think it would be the wrong choice to do that. That's a message that we have constantly had with the UK Government when we've been able to talk to them, and we've made clear that we think the loss of primary steel making would be a mistake from the UK point of view. 
I recognise the concerns that if blast furnaces are closed, how much guarantees can people have that steel will continue to come into Wales to undertake other operations that require that import of steel. And it's not just Port Talbot; there are other sites around Wales that are looking anxiously about their future. That was made very clear to me when I went to Llanwern with John Griffiths and members of the community and Unite. So, there are many, many aspects to this that we need to understand, and I can assure the Member that we are making those points constructively but clearly in all of our conversations, and it is why I really do want to have that conversation with the UK Government as well, to understand whether we are really are on the same side, because, to be fair, I think Paul Davies was constructive. If that was the response of the UK Government, I think we would be able to do something to deliver a stronger future for the steel sector.

Altaf Hussain AS: Thank you for your statement, Minister. Following your discussions with Tata and the steel unions, do you have any concerns that the pursuit of electric arc furnaces could undermine the agreed deal? Since your previous statement following the news of the deal between Tata and the UK Government, what steps has the Welsh Government taken to support the workers at risk of redundancy? And finally, Minister, with today's announcement that Wales will need four times as many wind farms in order to meet your Government's energy targets. What steps are you taking to ensure that Port Talbot becomes the hub for the production of needed turbines? Thank you very much.

Vaughan Gething AC: On the final point, it's what we want to see delivered—investment in port infrastructure. That has to come alongside clarity, and a pipeline for the offshore industry itself. The current indication of 4 to 4.5 GW of power doesn’t provide enough for businesses to invest in the longer term. The potential for four to five times as much is really important to unlock, and then I think we will see those sorts of investment choices being made. It’s also why the port infrastructure choices, the floating offshore wind manufacturing industry scheme choices, which have yet to be made for Wales—it’s really important that that investment is made. And it underpins the Celtic free-port bid. Port Talbot and the port of Milford Haven need to see those investment choices being made, and to be fair, again, I know that there are Members in Altaf Hussain’s own party who are making that case. It’s really important that the decisions now come, and I hope that the autumn statement will not be a missed opportunity, because if the UK Government do announce that investment will come to Welsh ports, then I for one would welcome it. It would allow us to do more and to see jobs being created.
The challenge, though, still comes that, if the current proposals for only electric arc steel making come in, then that is part of the risk we see for the change in jobs, but also the scale over which that would happen. We’re not able yet to have specific conversations with people at risk of redundancy, because the consultation hasn’t finished, and what it’s really important that I do is not get lost in trying to give specific figures on job losses that are or might take place. I think it’s really important that I have the clarity in saying we need to have a meaningful consultation for the Syndex proposals that are coming, and which the company are aware of, to be looked at, treated meaningfully and seriously, before any formal consultation takes place. That will require—. If we are required to do things around it, we will do, but it will definitely require the company and the unions to look again at what might be possible. So, I look forward to receiving a copy of that report when it’s provided, and I look forward to, I hope, then at least having a conversation with the union on what the future could be, and a better future than the one that was possible last week.

John Griffiths AC: Minister, thank you for the mention of all the Tata plants in Wales, and particularly your visit to the Llanwern plant to speak with the unions and hear from them first-hand. As you will know, Llanwern is still a significant part of the local economy, and in fact the age profile at Llanwern now is younger than it has been for quite some time, which is also significant in terms of any restructuring that takes place. Obviously, uppermost in the concerns of the trade unions at Llanwern, Minister, is the future of Llanwern and how it fits into the overall picture, and the cold mill, for example, and fears that any steel produced by electric arc furnaces might not be of the quality that would support the continued operation of the Zodiac plant, for example. So, there are many particular issues and specific issues that Llanwern has, and the workforce there has, as part of that general situation that we face in terms of steel in Wales. So, it’s just my usual plea, really, Minister, that Llanwern isn’t overlooked in any way in terms of the wider picture as matters proceed.

Vaughan Gething AC: I'm grateful to the Member for pointing out the interconnected nature of choices that are made around Port Talbot and their direct impact on significant numbers of jobs in other parts of Wales, including Llanwern. And it was a really instructive visit, not just meeting trade union representatives from Community and Unite, but also, then, seeing some of the operation as well. The quality of the steel that comes in is really important for the product they’re able to make at the end, and the viability of the plant and the jobs that go alongside it.
I think it is worth picking up, Llywydd, on the point made about the average age of the workforce. The average age of the workforce is younger than I think people would assume. These are people, men and women, who have responsibilities that won’t disappear in a year or two’s time. They will have outgoings for families and homes that will increase the anxiety they face, and it’s really important to understand that. And that certainly informs the way the Welsh Government is going about our engagement with other stakeholders, and it really does reinforce our expectations for consultation to be meaningful and we want as much investment as possible, and the best possible future for the steel sector and their workers.

Sioned Williams AS: I want to refer back to the uncertainty and the anxiety that you mentioned, because uncertainty and anxiety are felt throughout the communities I represent. Businesses and families beyond the workers who work directly in the Port Talbot steelworks are being impacted by these rumours, these whispers about the future, and it creates a great deal of anger and pain. So, I want to know how the Government are ensuring that they are communicating what is happening behind closed doors and around boardrooms with the wider community that is also concerned about the prosperity of their area. And how is the work of the transition board, particularly, building in the participation of the wider community?

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you for the question.

Vaughan Gething AC: I think I should point out that today is an exercise in communicating with the wider workforce and the wider community who are concerned. Part of what we need to do in the Welsh Government is to remain honest brokers and honest interlocutors with everyone that we talk to, to be clear about when we have discussions that are confidential, to be clear about the consistency we have in discussions with different partners, and what we then can and can't say in a wider audience.
The difficulty, of course, is that not knowing what the end proposals are, so having had the detailed briefing that's then been reported on and then that not going ahead—. Well, actually, the proposals were really concerning. If they'd gone ahead that would have been a major concern, but people are now living with the uncertainty of not knowing. Having the Syndex report, understanding what that will look like, wanting to hold Tata to their commitment to engage in a meaningful consultation around that, will be really important for us.
The worst position is the one we're in in many ways. When people say, 'What is really going to happen?', to have to honestly tell someone, 'I don't know' is really difficult. And that's actually really difficult for trade union representatives as well. So, GMB, Community and Unite representatives who are being asked by their members in plants across the steel sector, are having to tell their members they don't know what is really happening. And that can be hard, because sometimes your members assume that you really do know what's going on and you just don't want to tell them, whereas, actually, they haven't been aware.
I think, though, having a united position from steel trade unions around a report from Syndex—if there's a viable alternative we need to make sure that is properly considered. That's why I repeat again the call for the company to take seriously any alternative proposals and for the UK Government to be prepared to move on from their current position of the amount of support they're prepared to provide, and understand the value that could be lost if we're not able to secure the largest amount of jobs possible and the wider economic opportunities that still continue to exist for steel making here in Wales and the wider UK.

Vikki Howells AC: Thank you, Minister, for your statement on what is, of course, a crucial industry for us, both as a key component of the Welsh economy and in terms of our national security also.
I'm pleased to hear you reaffirm your commitment to hydrogen as an alternative to the heavy end. I think it's really important that, in the absence of a clear and progressive long-term strategy from UK Government, the Welsh Government articulates an alternative that might be achieved with either a change in direction from the current UK Tory Government or, and more likely in my opinion, a more progressive future Labour Government.
My question for you this afternoon: the Industrial Communities Alliance has highlighted a number of concerns about the UK Government's proposals, including in terms of the steel industry's workforce, the environmental impact and the effect on the local and national economy. What is your response to these concerns as set out in the ICA's 'Wrong Deal for Steel' paper?

Vaughan Gething AC: I think the broad point is that we share a number of the concerns about what could happen. If you have the loss of all primary steel making you're then reliant on imports from other countries and the prices that you then have to pay. That is a challenge in itself. Will everyone then be prepared in the longer term to carry on importing that steel to run through mills in Wales, or will, actually, you see a move to the potential for that work shifting? Because if it shifts, the risk is the shift is permanent. Now that's a real risk that is discussed openly; it's part of the anxiety that steel-making families understand between themselves.
I think the other point is—. The point I'm trying to make about the UK Government is that whatever the shade of the UK Government they need to make a choice about what is in the strategic interests of the United Kingdom when it comes to steel making and having that ability here, and the fact that the future economy will rely on steel. We can either make it ourselves, or we can import it, with all the risks that go with it. Then, if you are prepared to co-invest with the sector in a different future, how much are you prepared to invest and what is your expectation on the return on that, in terms of jobs secured and having different technology choices as well?
I still think that there is room for the UK Government to do the right thing, and to want to deliver a better deal for steelworkers here in Wales, and I think that that would be of benefit right across the UK. We will carry on making that case. I do believe that we would have a better prospect of seeing that case realised if there were a different Government. Nevertheless, it's our responsibility to carry on making that case to the current Government, recognising that their choices could determine the future of the sector.

Jane Dodds AS: Many of you may be wondering why a Member of Mid and West Wales is standing here commenting on this particular issue. Unless you hadn't noticed, as the sole Liberal Democrat, I am the spokesperson on everything. In my role here, I am the spokesperson for the economy and, if there was such a person, the spokesperson on workers' rights. As a former shop steward, it seems absolutely abominable to me, the way that Tata have treated their workers. The additional stress that comes for those workers at this time—you've commented on that, and many here have as well.
It feels that you are doing everything that you can, but I just wondered—. One of the issues that I do raise is the issue of transition basic income. That is an opportunity to move people who are working in carbon-heavy industries, giving them that guarantee of a regular income, to a green industry, with the skills as well, on top of everything else that they are entitled to through any employment packages. So, I just wondered: could you please comment on how the Welsh Government is working at the moment to think about transition basic income in relation to this scenario? Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you. I should recognise that I am a former shop steward myself. I should also recognise that there is at least one other former trade union lawyer in the room, and at least one other full-time—no, two other full-time trade union representatives in their past lives as well.
Look, I think that the challenge is—[Interruption.] What? I think that the challenge is: how can we best support the workforce in the current uncertainty, and wanting to make it clear that we don't want to simply accept that there will be significant job losses in the near future? We want to see the report that is coming taken seriously. That's why we call for the UK Government to be partners in a conversation about the future.
If there are to be job losses, we need to look at the levers that we currently have available. You'll be aware of the current basic income pilot, which I am proud that this Government is undertaking. It is specifically looking at people leaving care. I don't think that we could transfer that into the current issues that may crystallise over the coming months. What we do have, though, within my department, is the support that we provide through our ReAct+ programme and Communities for Work Plus, where we do seek to try to help people in the transition to undertake a move from one employment to another. We've seen that deployed with Tillery Valley Foods. We've seen it deployed around 2 Sisters as well, to try to make use of the levers that we have.
That's why the budget matters as well. This is a demand-led budget. So, the scale and size of what happens, and the speed of it, will make a difference to the sort of support that we can provide and how effectively we can provide that. So, whether it's called a basic income or otherwise, the starting point is: what support can we provide, how effective can it be, how do we understand the job opportunities that exist, and then how do we help people to practically undertake them?

Sarah Murphy AS: My grandfather, Patrick Murphy, from New Ross, Wexford, helped to build the Port Talbot steelworks in the 1950s and worked there until he retired, as did my Dad in his summer holidays, and my uncles and my cousins, who were all raised in Bridgend as a result of this. So, this is a really common origin story in my community of Bridgend. We still have many of the workforce who live in my constituency, so there is huge anxiety, as well as huge solidarity with all of the workforce across south Wales.
I want to really echo everything that my colleague David Rees has said today. I want to thank all of the trade unions for standing up for the workforce—Community, Unite, GMB—Stephen Kinnock, the MP for Port Talbot, and also yourself, Minister. Because, as you have emphasised today, it is about prioritising those people and those families who are at the heart of this.
It is my understanding that UK Labour has committed a £3 billion green steel pledge to help level up UK plants and retain jobs in a fair transition, a meaningful transition, and also have a nearly emission-free steel industry by 2035.So, I'm sorry, but the elephant in the room here is I'm standing here today hearing how UK Government and Tata Steel have absolutely failed to find a deal that is in the best interests of the workforce and our environment and our economy, and then we have this commitment from UK Labour that is ambitious and I just want to ask: does the Minister agree with me that the only way to save British steel is to elect a UK Labour Government in the next general election as soon as possible? Diolch.

Vaughan Gething AC: Well, I want to thank your grandfather, Patrick Murphy, for making the journey here and helping to be part of, not just the story of Ireland, but the future of Wales, and that's a common story that we should always be prepared to celebrate.
On your point around the attitude of the current UK Government, as I've said repeatedly, we will carry on looking to work for the best possible alternative and carry on making the case for continued investment in an alternative future. But on this and so many other things the prospects of delivering a genuinely just transition, with the maximum value for current and future workers, would immeasurably be improved if there were a UK Labour Government, and I look forward to that election taking place as soon as possible.

Rhianon Passmore AC: Minister, you told the media, during a news conference earlier, that if all blast furnace activities end without an alternative way to make primary steel, then the UK could be the only G7 country not to have primary steel making capability, and this in today's volatile world is neither sensible nor secure. So, it's imperative that Tata now engage with deep and meaningful consultation with trade unions and thoroughly examine the forthcoming publication of the Syndex report, which has been examining alternative options to decarbonise the industry.
Minister, the trade unions Community, GMB and Unite estimate electric arc furnaces at Port Talbot could result in 3,000 job losses at the steelworks and numerous downstream Tata operations in Wales, which includes Llanwern, an important Gwent employer for Islwyn communities, alongside significant secondary supply chain economic impacts. You stated you've had further dialogue with Tata and unions this week alongside the First Minister, so, therefore, will you keep the Senedd updated on your urgent request to meet face to face with the UK Secretary of State for Business and Trade? And will you make a further urgent statement to this place when Syndex is published so that Wales continues to make indigenous steel, ensuring future security and productivity and securing Welsh green steel jobs now and of the future?

Vaughan Gething AC: I'm more than happy to commit to keep the Senedd Chamber informed as there are significant developments and areas that we can usefully comment on. When the Syndex report is made available, it will, I think, be necessary to ensure that the clarity of the expectation from this Government and others that meaningful consultation takes place around that report before there is any kind of crystallisation on proposals is important, and the time for that to happen is there, and the space for that to happen as well. It may well be the preference of trade unions representing the workforce that there is time given before a further statement is made in this Chamber, but I'm more than happy to commit to update Members on any meaningful progress that is made in conversations with the UK Government or indeed on any proposals, alternative proposals, that we're able to highlight for Members here, and I know that Members across the Chamber are expressing views because of the understanding of the reach of the steel sector as well. So, I hope that's a helpful undertaking to give.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Finally, Huw Irranca-Davies.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Diolch, Llywydd, and, Minister, thank you for the statement. Nobody would be opposed to electric arc being part of the future mix of steel making in the UK, but wouldn't it be absolutely abhorrent if, at the moment, where there is a rush, globally, to be first to market in developing green primary steel making, we absented ourselves from that competition? But what that requires is active Government involvement, alongside Tata Steel, alongside the workforce, but it requires a UK Government as well as Welsh Government—I say this quite frankly, because otherwise we will lose it, and future generations will not thank us for it. We will walk away from primary steel making, and we will offshore it, and will not get that first-to-market competitive edge. And, yes, it will cost. We might have to look at energy costs in the way that other European countries do. We might have to look at investment and grant funding to develop the new technologies. Of course we will. So will other people. But we could be not looking at jobs of the past, but jobs of the future in green steel. So, Minister, could I just ask you: in this pause that we have now ended with, will he do his very best to work with Tata Steel, UK Government, the unions, the workforce, looking on the back of the report that we're awaiting eagerly, and actually argue that case for an active industrial strategy that says that we should be leading the world in developing green steel, green primary steel, as well as electric arc? Because it would be a tragedy, and future generations will not thank us, not just for losing jobs, but for saying that these are jobs of the past when, actually, they should be jobs of the future and we should be leading the way.

Vaughan Gething AC: I thank the Member. I particularly want to highlight that we agree that electric arc steel making is part of the future. The difference is that we don't think it's the only future for steel making in the UK. We'll continue to make that case in all of our engagements. It really is a choice for the UK Government. If they're prepared to say that they want primary steel making to take place and they're prepared to co-invest in that future, it is possible. There is more that they can do and I'm glad that the Member mentioned energy costs. Other European countries typically have had a more supportive environment around energy. That matters for everyone, including—. I should point out that there is at least one steel maker in my constituency that makes electric arc steel. Energy costs are a real issue that would make a really big difference and we should look at what other European countries do. It has been a regular ask, when the UK Steel Council used to meet, from the sector and from trade unions, and the UK Government understood very well that it was a call where you could see a lack of equivalence with competitor European countries.
I completely agree with you that we need an active Government that is prepared to take ownership and to intervene to make sure that we have the ability to own the future as opposed to importing it from other parts of the world. That is part of what is at stake today.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: I thank the Minister.

Motion to Suspend Standing Orders

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: We will now move to a motion to suspend Standing Orders to allow the debate on remembrance to take place. The Deputy Minister to move that motion.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Formally make the—

Motion NNDM8394 Lesley Griffiths
To propose that the Senedd, in accordance with Standing Orders 33.6 and 33.8:
Suspends that part of Standing Order 11.16 that requires the weekly announcement under Standing Order 11.11 to constitute the timetable for business in Plenary for the following week, to allow NNDM8393 to be considered in Plenary on 7 November 2023.

Motion moved.

Hannah Blythyn AC: Formally.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Formally, the motion to suspend Standing Orders. Does any Member object? No. Therefore, the motion is agreed.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

10. Debate: Remembrance

The following amendment has been selected: amendment 1 in the name of Heledd Fychan.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: The next item will be the debate on remembrance and I call on the Deputy Minister to move that motion. Hannah Blythyn.

Motion NNDM8393 Lesley Griffiths, Darren Millar, Heledd Fychan
To propose that the Senedd:
1. Recognises the enduring importance of the Remembrance period to families and communities in Wales.
2. Pays tribute to the service and sacrifice of individuals from across Wales who now serve or have served in our armed forces.
3. Acknowledges the tireless work of organisations, individuals and volunteers who support our armed forces community and veterans across Wales.

Motion moved.

Hannah Blythyn AC: Thank you. I welcome this opportunity for us to come together once again in the Senedd to mark remembrance. There will be many commemoration events being held over the weekend in communities across the country. I'm also grateful for the cross-party support, so that we can come together to remember those who have served and those who have made the ultimate sacrifice.

Hannah Blythyn AC: Sadly, though, today's debate takes place in the midst of ongoing conflict around the world. I know that there are people and communities in Wales thinking of loved ones as well as people they've never met and will never meet, including in Ukraine, Israel and Gaza. Recent events all too starkly serve to reinforce the distress, misery, pain and grief that conflict inflicts on people and places. And so, whilst not forgetting or diminishing that in any way, it is too right that we take the opportunity to collectively focus on remembrance and the enduring importance to families and communities in Wales.
With each annual remembrance period we reach, our second world war generation, whilst remaining no less significant, becomes smaller. It is now primarily our national service generation who are largely our country's most senior cohort of veterans. Back in June, I had the honour of attending the sixtieth anniversary commemoration for the end of national service at the National Memorial Arboretum. Between 1949 and 1963, more than 2 million men were conscripted into the British Army, Royal Navy or Royal Air Force. They served and fought in operations across the world, in the Suez canal zone, as peacekeepers in Cyprus, on counterinsurgency operations in Malaysia, amongst others. And Members here have heard me share before that I grew up with stories of my own granddad's national service in Nigeria and have seen the photos that he sent to my nan, with nice messages on, when they were what we called in those days 'courting'.
National servicemen also fought and died in the Korean war, which lasted from 1950 to 1953. This is another significant seventieth anniversary reached this year. The years may pass, but remembrance remains important in Wales, as it has always been and will remain a significant provider of service personnel. Whilst we have 5 per cent of the population share of the UK, 7 per cent of the armed services' serving strength comes from Wales, and we know from the 2021 census that one in 12—that is, 8.1 per cent of households in Wales—have someone who has previously served in the armed forces. Approximately one in 20, 4.5 per cent of the Welsh population, is a veteran.

Hannah Blythyn AC: And the importance and scale of remembrance is evident from the displays and activities in our towns and villages, as well as the many remembrance services that I expect many Members will be attending this week and over the weekend, whether in schools, in hospitals or our many war memorials. Our war memorials serve as a community focus as well as a reminder of the consequences of war, and the positive community response to the work of the artist Tee2Sugars in providing a house-sized remembrance mural as a backdrop to a memorial in Abertillery is an example of how embedded commemoration is at the local level.
The significant and enduring work of the Royal British Legion is also central to remembrance activity, in the importance of its poppy appeal and the work of volunteer poppy collectors in communities across Wales who have been out and about in all hours and also in all weathers over the last weeks. And, of course, this year, the Royal British Legion have moved to a new sustainable plastic-free poppy, which I am proudly wearing this afternoon. The money raised during remembrance makes a real difference in both looking after the families of those who have given their lives in conflict and those who have been forever scarred by their service.
Our commemoration also rightly reflects on our diversity in Wales. The British legion garden of remembrance in Cardiff castle features a multitude of wooden markers, crosses, crescents, stars of David and other markers representing the diversity and equality of sacrifice in past conflict. In Pembrey this weekend, the Polish community will be conducting a commemoration at the graves of the seven Polish airmen who lost their lives in the second world war. It's also the Polish National Independence Day, so it'll be a day of celebration as well as commemoration.
On Saturday, the First Minister will be present at the Merchant Navy Association's commemoration at the memorial here outside the Senedd, and next week my colleague the Minister for Social Justice and Chief Whip will be with Race Council Cymru and our Windrush elders at the black and minority ethnic commemoration service in Alexandra gardens. This is the seventy-fifth anniversary of Windrush, and many of those who came across from Commonwealth countries to live and work here are those who had previously served in world wars. The Merchant Navy Association commemoration also provides an opportunity to remember the diversity of sailors and their families from Cardiff and Wales's port communities who served.
This year was also a year in which the contribution of LGBTQ+ servicepeople was finally formally recognised through Lord Etherton's independent review. Many in this community desperately wanted to serve, but had careers cut short with dreadful hurt and harm done. Others served but with lives led in secret and in fear of being found out and dismissed from a job they loved. The public apology from the Prime Minister in Parliament in June was an important first step on the road to rectifying the wrongs of the past. LGBTQ+ veterans now march with pride past the cenotaph in Whitehall and will be doing so this weekend again as part of Fighting With Pride.
This is also a year in which we should remember our nuclear test veterans, with a medal being awarded from this year to those who served in the nuclear test programme between 1952 and 1967. It's a particular element of service and sacrifice in which the effects have passed through generations and that we remember this week.
The remembrance period also serves as an opportunity to reflect and recognise those who have served and those who continue to serve. In those who serve, we, of course, think of our regular cap-badge units and ships among our 7 per cent of armed forces: the Royal Welsh in Tidworth, the Queen's Dragoon Guards in Norfolk, the Welsh Guards in Windsor, His Majesty's Ships Cambria and Dragon and the cruisers serving them. We think of the armed forces' presence in Wales at RAF Valley, in Brecon, Brawdy, St Athan and elsewhere, and remember our many reservists across Wales and those employers who support them to manage their dual roles.
We also think of service families at this time. We are conscious that in Wales we have many who have lost loved ones and for whom this is an incredibly difficult period. This time last year I had the privilege of marching to the cenotaph in Whitehall with the War Widows Association and of hearing their stories of pride, of love and of loss. We often celebrate servicepeople and veterans, but not so much service children, so I was pleased to see that Sean and Rhia Molino of the Welsh Veterans Awards organised a new event in Brecon on 28 October, recognising service children.
Of course, our servicepeople who have served our country often go on to serve our communities and, as a Government, we want to ensure Wales can benefit from the skills service personnel develop when they transition back into civilian life. That's why we're continuing our partnership working with the 160th (Welsh) Brigade, the Career Transition Partnership, and the Reserve Forces and Cadets Associations to bring employment opportunities to the armed forces community through a third annual Welsh employment fair and employers workshop at the Cardiff City Stadium next week, on 16 November. We expect to see 50 employers with active job offers at the event, and I'm also pleased to see the return of the Building Heroes partnership with Cardiff and Vale College and its new course this week, providing a route for servicepeople into construction opportunities in Wales.
Whilst for many, service is a positive experience, this is a time when we remember those for whom the armed forces covenant is there to help support. We continue to fund Veterans' NHS Wales to provide an open-access mental health pathway across Wales, and whilst veterans can be referred by their GP, this open access allows a veteran to self-refer to the service or to be referred by their family.
Since the last remembrance period, the duty of due regard has come into effect, requiring consideration of the needs of the local armed forces community at the local level in planning, delivering and reviewing policy. This affects local delivery in devolved areas by local authorities and health boards in particular, and our armed forces liaison officers have been active in this area, as have Supporting Service Children in Education Cymru.
I know too that the third sector is key in supporting veterans across Wales through hubs, both staticand mobile, through temporary accommodation, through advice and pensions and entitlements and much more, and I know many Members have supported those initiatives in their own communities and constituencies.

The Deputy Presiding Officer took the Chair.

Hannah Blythyn AC: Finally, I want to mention the work of the veterans' commissioner, the Welsh Government's expert group and the Senedd's cross-party group on the armed forces and cadets. I know that we are determined to work together to support the armed forces community in Wales.

Hannah Blythyn AC: The scrutiny and challenge through these groups is valued, and plays a part in helping to ensure that the service and sacrifices of the armed forces community receive the focus and support that they rightly deserve. Diolch.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: I have selected the amendment to the motion, and I call on Sioned Williams to move amendment 1, tabled in the name of Heledd Fychan.

Amendment 1—Heledd Fychan
Add as new points at end of motion:
Supports the need to strive for peaceful resolutions to all conflicts and for an end to war.
Remembers all those who have lost their lives in wars and conflicts, including civilian casualties.

Amendment 1 moved.

Sioned Williams AS: Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd, and I move the amendment.
With Remembrance Sunday approaching, it is right that we reflect on the sacrifice and bravery of those who have served in our armed forces in the past. But we should also reflect on the fact that there are those who are still being put in this appalling and unacceptable situation of being injured, traumatised and killed due to the conflict that arises as a result of man’s inability to live in peace with his fellow man, as a result of the fact that man seeks power or demands dominion over his fellow man, as man seeks to take the territory or resources of his fellow man through violence.
What we must remember as we do remember is the clear warning of poets such as Wilfred Owen that the sentiment behind what is written on too many of our nation’s war memorials is dangerous nonsense: dulce et decorum est pro patria mori. It is not sweet or an honour, and no-one should ever be asked to die for their country. We shouldn’t glorify those whom we have lost, but shed tears over their sacrifice, which stems from humanity’s failure to live in peace. We should remember their suffering, and in so doing remember the unacceptable price of war, and promise them, the young soldiers who paid this ultimate price, that we will do everything in our power to create and sustain peace in our world.
As outlined in the Plaid Cymru amendment, we should also remember the many people who are physically, mentally or economically harmed by war—be they soldiers, their families or civilians—and we should emphasise the need to strive for peaceful solutions to every conflict and seek to prevent this conflict from arising in the first instance. The first world war, which led to our modern traditions of remembrance, was erroneously described at the time as the war to end all wars. But unfortunately, every generation since then has experienced war and its terrible price.
My son, who has just turned 18, recently visited the battlegrounds of northern France to take part in a rugby tournament featuring teams from different European nations, as a sign of international friendship between young men on ground where men of his age had to kill and maim each other in their millions. He told me on his return that he was shocked that inscriptions on the first world war memorials that he saw on the visit stated, 'For our tomorrow they gave their today', because he knows from his studies that that appalling war was the result of imperialism’s aggressive militarism. In remembering, we must also be firm in our opposition to what can lead to war, be that stemming from imperialism or treating some groups of people with less equality than others.
Recent events have emphasised anew that humanity’s appetite for war is as clear now as it was in 1914.Putin’s cruel and illegal invasion of Ukraine has reminded us once again of the horror of war, with the people of Ukraine and soldiers from Ukraine and Russia suffering. We have also witnessed the displacement of thousands of Armenians from the Nagorno-Karabakh region by Azerbaijan’s military incursion.And during the past month, of course, atrocities have been committed by Hamas and the armed forces of the Government of Israel on thousands of innocent civilians, with the situation in Gaza becoming ever more parlous for the people of Palestine and the Israeli hostages.
In the face of such slaughter, we are reminded of Hedd Wyn’s description in Welsh of the horror of war in his poem, 'Rhyfel'/'War':
'The sound of battle is in our ears, / And its shadow on poor cottages.'
Over a century later, the truth of his words continues to resonate. With the relentless drumbeat of war becoming ever louder, we have a moral duty to stand for the cause of peace.
It's also important that we ensure that veterans in Wales are supported. Because despite some positive developments in terms of relevant support services in recent years, Wales’s veterans continue to face significant challenges in civilian life. For example, the housing crisis in Wales has a disproportionate effect on former members of the armed forces. Research by the Royal British Legion has found that adults of working age who are veterans are more likely to suffer illness or disability, and this means that those who need accessible accommodation have to wait longer on social housing waiting lists. The cost-of-living crisis has also had a disproportionate impact on the armed forces community, because on average, disabled people face additional costs of around £584 a month.

Sioned Williams AS: It's my sincerest hope, as we mark this important and sad period of remembrance, that we can move forward towards a future where the terrible consequences of war are truly consigned to the past.

Sioned Williams AS: I’d like to conclude with a poem in Welsh by the poet Alan Llwyd, one of my constituents, and ask you to reflect on these words this Remembrance Sunday, and remember everyone who has suffered as a result of war:
'The fallen, though held in glory, / Were slain in cruel futility, / Distinction dims and brings / Their sorrow through silent stone.'

Mark Isherwood AC: The remembrance period is an opportunity for us, as the motion says, to pay tribute to the service and sacrifice of individuals from across Wales who now serve or who have served in our armed forces, acknowledge the work of organisations, individuals and volunteers who support our armed forces community and veterans across Wales, help future generations to understand past conflicts, where the past informs the future, remember all those who have lost their lives in wars and conflicts, including civilian casualties, and support the need for peaceful resolutions to all conflicts.
As we heard, remembrance this year marks the seventieth anniversary of the armistice that ended the fighting in the Korean war—the forgotten war. It also honours the contribution of the generation in uniform who undertook national service, 60 years after the last serviceperson was demobbed. My father was a national service soldier a decade prior to that, serving in Cyprus and Egypt. During the Korean war, units of the then-called Welch regiment were sent to Korea, accompanied by Royal Welch Fusiliers and a platoon from the South Wales Borderers. Thirty-two members of the Welch regiment were killed in the conflict. As we heard, remembrance 2023 also marks the seventy-fith anniversary of the arrival of people from the Caribbean on the Empire Windrush, many of whom were veterans of the second world war.
Speaking here in July, I highlighted the Credit their Service campaign launched by the Royal British Legion, calling for an end to the treatment of military compensation as income across welfare benefit means tests and emphasised the need for action by the Welsh Government and Welsh local authorities to ensure that this happens. Some 150,000 members of the UK armed forces community receive military compensation awarded to support the ongoing costs of an illness or injury acquired in service. Means testing results in some of the poorest members of the armed forces community being denied thousands of pounds of support, while civil compensation, such as for personal injury or medical negligence, is exempt from this. Although a UK-wide issue, this includes areas where the Welsh Government leads, and we therefore look to them to respond.
I led a short debate here in January 2008 supporting the Royal British Legion's Honour the Covenant campaign, concluding that this must be fought until it is won, and welcomed the publication of the UK armed forces covenant in May 2011. The Welsh Government and all local authorities in Wales signed the covenant and subscribed to work with partner organisations to uphold its principles, as have health boards, police and businesses since. The Royal British Legion is urging the next UK Government, whoever it is, to bolster the armed forces covenant duty. This includes extending its reach to encompass both UK and devolved Governments and all policy matters.
In this context, it's noted, as we heard, that the statutory guidance on the armed forces covenant duty was issued last November, produced by the UK Government in consultation with the devolved Governments, placing a legal duty on specified authorities to have due regard to the principles of the armed forces covenant when exercising statutory functions in the devolved areas of healthcare, education and housing. It's also noted that the UK Government launched a £33 million funding package in March to support veterans over the next three years, and that they launched Op FORTITUDE for homeless veterans in July—a first-of-its-kind hotline and part of a two-year £8.55 million programme to fulfil the UK Government's pledge to end veterans rough-sleeping.
Housing providers, including Alabaré Homes for Veterans, are listed as accepting Op FORTITUDE referrals. Alabaré Homes for Veterans provides dedicated support to veterans in north and south Wales—specifically Cardiff, Pontypridd, Swansea and Conwy. As a British army veteran living in north Wales recently e-mailed, 'I have friends and colleagues that have slipped through the net who are or have been homeless. As we know, a large percentage of the UK's homeless are British armed forces veterans, which is unacceptable considering they signed their lives away to defend the realm and country'.
Mental health charity Adferiad have told me that although two Change Step veteran peer mentors are embedded in Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board—. Both they and Veterans' NHS Wales have told me there is a need to appoint peer mentors into the remaining five health boards that do not have one. They add that it's become a postcode lottery now as to veterans' access to a peer mentor. So, when we say, 'We will remember them', we must remember what that really means. Diolch yn fawr.

Jack Sargeant AC: Deputy Presiding Officer, I had the privilege of attending the official opening of Caffinaafi a few weekends ago at the newly located veterans and community hub in Connah's Quay. It's a space to come together—veterans and their families and the wider community—to support each other. I know the chair of the cross-party group on the armed forces and cadets, Darren Millar, has recently visited to hear about the experience, and I'd like to extend an invitation to the Deputy Minister to join me over a cuppa with some veterans at Caffinaafi in Connah's Quay to hear the experiences of conflict, where they have been in conflict. Because I believe, Deputy Presiding Officer, that the best way to honour the past is to listen and learn from it. And it's in these difficult times that that message is one that we should all seek to remember. So, I'm grateful for the opportunity again to speak in our annual remembrance debate, to pay tribute to all of those across Wales who have served or continue to serve, to remember those who have been injured and killed while serving, and to remember those civilian casualties as well. Their sacrifice must never be forgotten. The flame of remembrance must always burn. It's why I always want to pay tribute to those that organise our annual remembrance events locally, particularly those across my communitywho enable our corner of north-east Wales to come together to remember next weekend. Diolch.

Jane Dodds AS: We pause today from our usual routines in the Siambr so that we may come together and reflect upon those who have been and are affected by war. The freedom we have here in Wales to vote in free elections, speak our minds openly, and live without fear of oppression, was forged through the selfless sacrifice of ordinary men and women from villages, towns and cities across our nation. Their valiant defence against tyranny shall not be forgotten. Yet too many bright futures were cut short. Too many families were left grieving for those who did not come home. Too many servicemen were left wounded or mentally scarred by their selfless war service. The price paid was steep, and lingers long in the memories of communities across Wales. We honour the sacrifice and courage of those who served, not only through our reflections today, but through our continued actions to promote lasting peace, to build a world where no more lives are lost in war, where resolution is sought at the negotiating table, not on the battlefield.
At times, peace can appear all too fragile—a vulnerable, flickering flame. Our attempts to settle conflict through dialogue rather than through bloodshed can seem, sometimes, almost foolhardy when faced with the chaos and the devastation of war. Though peace may feel out of reach, we cannot give up hope or cease our efforts. If we stop trying, if we neglect the hard work of building bonds between people, past suffering will have been meaningless. For innocent lives torn apart by war, and still today being torn apart by war, this slender hope for peace is all they have left. I finish with two lines:
'Make me a channel of your peace. / Where there is hatred, let me bring your love.'
Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Darren Millar AC: First of all, amen to those last few words. We all want a peaceful world, and want to be agents of peace in it. I stand to pay my tribute to those who have fallen and those who have been injured and all those who have paid a price in the conflicts that these islands that we live on have endured over the generations. And of course, I will be attending the cenotaph in Abergele over the weekend, in order to lay a wreath, as many people will be doing in their own local constituencies.
I count it a privilege to chair the cross-party group on the armed forces and cadets here in the Senedd, which shows how we can work together on a cross-party basis for the benefit of those who continue to serve, who work hard to keep us safe, day in, day out, from the threats that are unfortunately still there in the world, and also to pay tribute to those veterans and to support those veterans who have given so much of their lives to the services as well. And of course, there are a myriad of fantastic organisations that are working across Wales to support our armed forces family and our veterans community: the Royal British Legion, Woody's Lodge, Caffinaafi, and many others, of course, across the country—SSAFA and the rest.
What we must do is to continue to engage with them in a positive way, through the expert group that the Welsh Government has, which also does some superb work, but also recognising those gaps in our services that still need to be plugged, still need to be improved. We've got an excellent network, of course, of armed forces champions in many of our public bodies across Wales. We've got some wonderful armed forces liaison officers who do terrific work. We don't have enough people championing the armed forces covenant in our national health service at the moment. That's something that does need to be addressed. We celebrate the success of Veterans' NHS Wales, but it still needs more resources, unfortunately. And working together I believe that we can continue to improve the lot of our armed forces here in this nation.
We also, of course, need to ensure that we remember the important role that employers can play in remembering those who have fallen in their organisations and supporting the veterans that work for them too. And I should put on record that I'm a member of the board of the Reserve Forces' and Cadets' Association for Wales, whose tie I'm sporting today, and, of course, they work very hard to ensure that people participate in the employer recognition scheme, which is set up by the Ministry of Defence, and also other recognition schemes, such as the armed forces schools scheme, which has gotten off to such a good start in Wales, and is something that can be promoted too.
So, can I thank the Welsh Government for its co-operation in tabling the debate today and say that I continue to want to work with you, under the auspices of the cross-party group, in order to make life in Wales better for our veterans and better for all those who serve, particularly in weeks like this, Remembrance Week?

Alun Davies AC: Again, we mark this time of remembrance at a time of war. We see the images from the middle east and from Ukraine, and we remember again what warfare does to people and communities. I was reflecting, Deputy Presiding Officer, that a journey to Ukraine isn't simply a journey through Europe, it's a journey through the history of Europe. You cross the first world war's western front in a matter of 40 minutes on a fast motorway; you pass all that suffering, all that sacrifice, all that loss, in a few minutes in a fast car. You also pass through all places whose names resound down the years.
Travelling to Ukraine a few weeks ago, I stopped off in a Dutch town, s-Hertogenbosch, where it was the Welsh fifty-third division that liberated the town, and we were there on the day that they remember the liberation of the town by those Welsh soldiers. And as we entered the town, we saw the Welsh flag flying, and we saw people gathered at the memorial, and we joined them, and we joined them in silence to remember those people who had sacrificed so much to liberate them so many years ago. But you can also stop on that journey to Ukraine at a place like Dresden, where you see in a modern German city the memories of that terrible night in February 1945, where a population paid the price of war. And then you stop again at Krakow, and last week I took a few hours to walk through the Jewish ghetto of Krakow. Today a bustling city, then, of course, a place where tens of thousands of Jews were gathered together before taken to be exterminated. And the memory stays with us all; 200 km away, you cross the border into Ukraine, where war is not something to be remembered, but is something that confronts us every day.
And as such, remembrance is a very personal thing, but it's also a collective action, and the silence that we all mark and we all respect in the time of remembrance is not simply a passive action, it's a powerful statement. The power of silence acts as a catalyst for reflection—reflection on conflict, reflection on loss, but also a reflection on service, the service of men and women who made the ultimate sacrifice, but also the service of those men and women for whom war is not a memory, but something they live with every day of their lives. The silence gives voice to those reflections, but it's a more powerful thing than the noise of war: it is a silence that echoes down the years and down the generations.
Deputy Presiding Officer, I see my own son now standing in front of a cenotaph, like his father did all those years ago. And this year I will reflect on those people who have served in the conflicts of yesteryear. Yes, we will soon be remembering the 80 years since D-day and the 80 years since world war two began to draw to a close. But let us make this silence not a passive silence but a powerful challenge for all of us to remember and to never forget what war does to people and what it does to a society.
In returning from Ukraine last week, I took time to visit Auschwitz. I first visited Auschwitz as a student, and I stood there with an American Jew and a friend from Sri Lanka. They both pointed out that neither of them would've survived. The memory of standing with them stays with me every day of my life. All too often we see the spectre of antisemitism beginning to stalk our continent and our society again. Silence and reflection is important, but so is action. The power of the silence empowers all of us to reflect, to remember, and to say together that never again will we allow our continent and our world to fall, as it did then. We must never forget what happened and we must make sure that we do all in our powers to make sure that it is never ever repeated. Thank you.

Peter Fox AS: I thank the Government, also, for bringing forward this important debate today. And this time of year signals an immensely important period in our annual calendar, doesn't it? A time where we come together, united in our shared desire to remember and pay our respects to those brave men and women who gave their everything, through the many conflicts over recent history, for our continued freedom—something so valuable, as we know today. The coming days allow us to gather our thoughts and reflect on not only those who have served our nations over the years but also those who still serve today, ready to keep us safe, especially at these times of such significant global unrest.
During the coming services, we will fall silent, thinking of those who served, who made the ultimate sacrifice. We will listen once again to the reading of the names from our cenotaphs, and the poignancy of the occasion never lessens, as we try to picture these people who stood before us and fell on our behalf. It's difficult, though, isn't it, to comprehend what it must've been like for them, especially in their last days and hours? It's difficult to imagine their situations or how they must have felt each day in those conflicts. But we do know of their courage and their bravery, and we will forever be thankful to them.
And at this time, we must also think about the many veterans in our communities, as we've heard, who carry the physical and mental scars of recent active service. We must continue to do all we can to support them in whatever way we can. Our armed forces covenants are so fundamentally important to that aim, and as a Parliament, we should stand behind all those who do so much to support our armed forces and their communities. In particular, I would like to thank our local liaison officer, Lisa Rawlings, for all she does, and also to thank our Veterans' Commissioner for Wales, Colonel James Phillips, for his focus on our veterans. And as I've mentioned in this Chamber a couple of years ago, I am the father of a veteran injured in Afghanistan. I, like many parents and veterans, have seen the debilitating mental scars that conflict leaves on our loved ones, and I'm lucky, my son returned home alive. But there are many families today, within many of our constituencies, who live day in, day out with the grief of losing their sons or daughters, and at these times, we think of them too, and we reflect on their losses and we pray for them also.
We also thank the Royal British Legion and many other charities who do so much fantastic work every day to support our veterans. In my constituency of Monmouth, the Gwent County Royal British Legion have been a pillar for veterans in the area since 1921, working tirelessly to keep the light burning, making sure that the lives of those who were lost are never forgotten, and the struggles of our veterans are kept at the forefront of our minds, and charities like them are priceless. We are blessed to have the armed forces that we have, with servicemen and women of the highest order, people totally dedicated to the people they serve. In the coming days, we will think of them and those who have gone before us and given so much, together with those who continue to live with the traumas of conflict. They are all in our thoughts. Thank you.

Rhianon Passmore AC: The enduring importance of the annual period of remembrance to the families and communities of Islwyn is highly visible in every high street of my constituency. Volunteers have for weeks in Islwyn festooned public space, uncovered displays of love dedicated with gratitude for the ultimate sacrifices made. This weekend organised remembrance services are being held across Islwyn, and I also want to thank all at the Royal British Legion, SSAFA, our armed forces champions and liaison officers, and particularly Councillor Teresa Heron and all of our Islwyn volunteers.
Each of our communities, from Pontymister to Maesycwmmer will gather in silence, and also in gratitude, in remembrance for all those who have fallen, and who fell to defend the basic rights, hard-won human rights and freedoms that we all in this Chamber every single day enjoy, free from oppression and tyranny. The world wars of the twentieth century shall never be forgotten, even though we see every year those who gave everything, physically they recede, but we will never forget them, nor shall we forget the Falklands war, the Iraq war or the war in Afghanistan, or other numerous conflicts in which our troops served. They will not be forgotten.
The present wars and conflicts between Ukraine and Russia and the terrible human horrors being experienced and unfolding daily across Israel and Palestine show us all so directly the need to consider the importance of the role of peacemaker, and also the importance of political leaders as peacemakers. So, I'd like to thank the Deputy Minister for Social Partnership for her updates, and for the practical support that is being provided for the armed forces community in Wales. A recent report, actually, of the cross-party group for the armed forces, chaired by Darren Millar, highlighted the breadth of support available in Wales, and, of course, there is still much to do. Indeed, on 16 November we will see the Welsh Government supporting the Wales employment fair as it brings together 130 service learners and veterans with 50 employers, all with jobs available, and widely welcomed across Islwyn to support those transitioning from forces into civilian life.
We will remember them collectively, collectively we will, and I think the last stanza of Laurence Binyon's poem 'For the Fallen' is very apt, and it states:
'As the stars that are starry in the time of our darkness, / To the end, to the end, they remain.'
Diolch.

James Evans AS: I'd like to also thank the Deputy Minister and the Government for bringing forward this statement today, because we come together to recognise and honour those who have made the ultimate sacrifice for our country. We come together not only to commemorate their bravery and their sacrifice, but also to reflect upon the importance of remembering everybody that has fallen in war.
Wales, like the rest of the United Kingdom, has a rich history of valour and sacrifice on the battlefield. The stories of Welsh soldiers, sailors and airmen who have served in conflicts around the world are embedded into the fabric of our nation, as they gave their lives so we could be here today. Like many Members in this Chamber, my family have very strong links with the armed forces. My great grandfather was a submarine captain during world war one during the very early days of underwater warfare—a very, very frightening experience. My grandfather served in the merchant navy, and I'm very pleased that that has now been recognised by the navy for their service as well. He was torpedoed twice by German U-boats and was pulled from the water on both occasions. There were many of his friends who were not so lucky to be pulled from the water. And also my other grandfather served in the Royal Artillery, and my father served during the Troubles in Northern Ireland.
None of them talked, really, about what they witnessed or experienced, but I'm very proud that my family stood up against fascism and terrorists. And I am proud to say that I'll be laying a wreath in Brecon on the weekend to remember my family and all those people who have served or are serving in our armed forces, and what they do to keep us safe, day in, day out. Remembrance in Wales is not merely a yearly ritual, but a profound expression of our gratitude and respect for those who have served. Our history is scattered with countless acts of bravery and selflessness, whether it is on the fields of Flanders, the beaches of Normandy, the mountains of Afghanistan, or in many other conflicts around the world. We remember those who fought and fell, the wounded, the prisoners of war and those who bear the physical and emotional scars of conflict. Their sacrifice serves as a stark reminder of the human costs of war, and that is why we must do all we can to support our veteran community. I know the chairman of our cross-party group on the armed forces has a clear vision, as we have on that group, to support our veteran community across Wales.
Remembrance is also embedded into all our communities. We have war memorials in our towns and villages right across Wales, and committed poppy sellers who go out to raise money for the Royal British Legion. Our schools play a very important role in teaching the history of the sacrifices made by those of our previous generations, because we must teach our future generations what has happened before so we can never experience the horrors of what happened. We must never forget that the freedoms we enjoy today were secured through the blood, sweat and tears of those who came before us, and it is our duty to ensure those sacrifices that they gave are never in vain.
Remembrance is not a duty; it is a responsibility. It is a responsibility to pass on the stories of bravery and sacrifice to the next generation. So, let us remember the fallen with gratitude, the living with support, and the future with hope that we can live in a world without war and conflict.

Joyce Watson AC: I'd like to start by paying tribute to all past and present armed forces personnel who have put their lives on the line to protect us all, millions of individuals who made the ultimate sacrifice so that we can enjoy the freedom that we take for granted today. I’m the daughter of a soldier who fought in the second world war, and I’m mindful of Wales’s support for our armed services. Being a prisoner of war, as my father was for four years, does leave mental scars, and physical scars as well. So, I’m really pleased that Veterans’ NHS Wales was set up by the Welsh Government in 2010 to help veterans suffering from post-traumatic stress disorder, an incredibly important service for anyone who has served in our armed forces and who will be experiencing mental health issues that relate specifically to their military service. Individuals can self-refer, which makes access much easier, and so far they’ve helped 4,500 people.
Having represented the Senedd at the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association for many years, I’m also mindful of the sacrifices that others have made for our freedom. Minister, will you join me in remembering the contribution of individuals from Commonwealth countries, which span Africa, Asia, the Americas, Europe and the Pacific, during both world wars? Over six million men and women from the Commonwealth served alongside British forces in world war two alone. Their sacrifice and contribution was critical to securing our freedom—a freedom that came at a huge cost. I will be attending a service at Alexandra Gardens in Cardiff next Tuesday to lay a wreath and commemorate minority ethnic and Commonwealth servicemen and women. These individuals were either living in Wales or came here to support us in our most desperate time of need during the world wars and previous wars. As I said, many lost their lives. It is essential that we remember those fallen heroes. I’m truly honoured to be invited to attend this service, and it’s being held by Race Council Cymru and Black History Wales in partnership with Cardiff Council, the Royal British Legion, the Royal Commonwealth Society Wales, the British armed forces and many others. We are all aware that this year's remembrance events take place against the backdrop of heartbreaking situations in Europe and also in the middle east.

Altaf Hussain AS: Thank you for allowing us to debate this important topic today. Alun, you were very strong about the silence and let us hope we don't ever witness silence of helplessness.
This weekend in churches and at war memorials across the British isles we will stand together and remember the sacrifice made by brave servicemen and women who laid down their lives to protect our freedoms and to preserve us from tyranny. We must remember them. We will honour their sacrifices. To do that, we proudly wear the poppy. That is not a symbol for colonial oppression; it is a humble, pertinent symbol of remembrance and hope, remembering those who died in conflict and a symbol of hope for a peaceful future.
After all, those who fought and died in all the major conflicts were from all races and faiths. Four hundred thousand Muslim soldiers fought for Britain during the first world war. Among them were Khudadad Khan, a Muslim from what is now known as Pakistan, who was the first Indian soldier to be awarded the Victoria Cross, the highest military award for gallantry. He was a machine gunner in a regiment supporting the British Expeditionary Force to prevent German troops taking the ports of Boulogne in France and Nieuwpoort in Belgium. Despite being overwhelmed, Khan's guard held off the German forces long enough to allow reinforcement to arrive. All were killed except Khan, who, despite being badly wounded, continued working his gun. He was left for dead but managed to crawl to safety. His bravery saved many lives.
Moving on to the second world war, people from across the Commonwealth chose to fight under the British flag. The British Indian Army mobilised 2.5 million personnel and became the largest volunteer force in history. When Britain fought for the liberation of south-east Asia, we assembled nearly a million troops. The great majority of the soldiers in what was the Fourteenth Army came from India and Africa. Volunteers from as far as Sierra Leone and Nigeria helped liberate Myanmar from Japanese occupation.
So, this weekend, it should not be just churches that are conducting services for remembrance, but also the mosques, the gurdwaras, synagogues, temples and other places of worship.As Rabbi Laura Janner-Klausner said, the blood from the battlefields did not discriminate between Sikhs, Muslims, Hindus, Christians and Jews. Therefore we honour those who fought together by remembering them together. Diolch yn fawr.

Gareth Davies AS: I'm pleased to take part in this important and timely debate as we embark on this period of remembrance. I thank the Government for tabling this debate tonight. Personally, I haven't served in the forces but my grandfather did his national service between 1948 and 1950, and he was responsible for moving Jewish people from Europe to Israel via Cyprus, and I thought that would be a timely remark to make given the current troubles in Gaza. And my grandfather has always been proud of his achievements during that period, as, indeed, we are as a family as well, in helping the most vulnerable people in their time of need. And it's quite a reflection, as far as I'm concerned, that my grandfather is now 93 and he was too young to serve in world war two. So, it's a sobering fact that surviving heroes from that period are sadly thinning out. That's why it's so important that we continue to mark this time of remembrance now and into the future, so that our children, their children and generations beyond that continue to remember those who have sacrificed their lives for the freedoms that we enjoy today.
Locally, in the Vale of Clwyd, I volunteered at Sainsbury's in Rhyl, selling poppies with my son for the Royal British Legion during last week's recess, and I will be joining my constituents over the weekend in remembering our local heroes from Denbighshire who gave their lives again for the freedoms that we hold today. I will be attending a service at St Asaph cathedral on Saturday, Armistice Day, and another service at Prestatyn parish church on Sunday, with wreaths being laid on my behalf at all other remembrance sites in the constituency, as sadly it's impossible to be everywhere at the same time.
I just want to close my remarks by saying the well known line from the service:
'At the going down of the sun and in the morning / We will remember them.'

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: I call on the Deputy Minister for Social Partnership to reply to the debate.

Hannah Blythyn AC: Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd, and I'd like to thank all Members for their contributions today.

Hannah Blythyn AC: We've come together in the Senedd Chamber today to recognise the many familial and family links that we have had, as we have heard from James Evans, Peter Fox and Gareth there in the final contribution. Joyce Watson, of course, is the daughter of a soldier that not only fought in the second world war but was held as a prisoner of war as well, with all the scars that that would bring.Joyce, I certainly join with you in marking the contribution of Commonwealth personnel alongside our Welsh serving personnel in conflicts and situations across the years.
We have also heard about the importance of coming together from Jane Dodds and from Sioned Williams. Remembrance also serves as an opportunity to redouble our efforts towards peace, and to remember people’s sacrifices and all those who have suffered as a consequence of war, and a reminder that we should always work together to strive for peace and an end to conflict in the future.
Darren Millar, I know that this is one of the areas where we can find common ground and agreement. Likewise, across the UK, I recently met with my counterparts from the Scottish Government, alongside Johnny Mercer, the veterans' Minister, where we can work together in that common cause to support veterans and make sure there is support in communities right across the country.
Alun Davies talked us through a journey both from the past and the present, and the importance of remembrance and actually how that serves us into the future as well. Rhianon Passmore and Altaf and others talked about the role that many legions of volunteers play in communities right across the country, in remembering those names that are on cenotaphs and other memorials the length and breadth of Wales.
To my near neighbour and constituency neighbour, Jack Sargeant, I would be more than happy to come and visit Caffinaafi. In fact, you were actually beaten to it, because on the day that you had actually been there, I was at a family party at Connah’s Quay cricket club, and Councillor Gill Faulkner had already raised it with me. But I am more than happy to come and visit. It’s not like I have to go far.
Today, we gather here in remembrance for the remembrance debate. But, Dirprwy Lywydd, if I may, I would just like to take the opportunity also to remember a colleague of ours, Carl Sargeant, on the anniversary of his tragic death today. I followed in the footsteps of Carl, not just as somebody else elected from Connah’s Quay, but in having the honour of leading our Welsh Government’s support for veterans. I think that it is right that, today, we too reflect on the role that Carl played and the work that he did as a proud champion of veterans and our armed forces community. I am very much privileged to build on that work today.
Dirprwy Lywydd, in conclusion, I appreciate that, for many in communities across the country serving, and veterans communities, when the last post is sounded at services, and in the two-minute silence that follows, there will be particular faces that may come to mind. In communities across the country, there will be people who are remembered, and lives cut far, far too short. So, when we stop and pause on Armistice Day, on Remembrance Sunday, as we have done today in this Chamber, we remember those who have served and those who have made the ultimate sacrifice. In their memory, we dedicate our cause to the end of conflict, and we will remember them.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: The proposal is to agree amendment 1. Does any Member object? No. Amendment 1 is therefore agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: The proposal now is to agree the motion as amended.

Motion NNDM8393as amended:
To propose that the Senedd:
1. Recognises the enduring importance of the Remembrance period to families and communities in Wales.
2. Pays tribute to the service and sacrifice of individuals from across Wales who now serve or have served in our armed forces.
3. Acknowledges the tireless work of organisations, individuals and volunteers who support our armed forces community and veterans across Wales.
4. Supports the need to strive for peaceful resolutions to all conflicts and for an end to war.
5. Remembers all those who have lost their lives in wars and conflicts, including civilian casualties.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Does any Member object? No. The motion as amended is therefore agreed, in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Motion as amended agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: That brings today's proceedings to a close.

The meeting ended at 18:15.

QNR

Questions to the First Minister

Cefin Campbell: What steps is the Welsh Government taking to unleash the economic and social potential of coastal areas in Mid and West Wales?

Mark Drakeford: We assist the economic and social development of coastal areas through a series of specific actions. These include our investment in city and growth deals, our investment in the £11 million Arfor programme and our support for the free-port programme.

James Evans: What is the Welsh Government doing to encourage young entrants into the agricultural industry?

Mark Drakeford: The Welsh Government continues to encourage young entrants into the agricultural industry through programmes such as Farming Connect and Start to Farm, formerly Venture. In the future, the proposed sustainable farming scheme will be available to all types of farms and will support new entrants to establish sustainable agricultural businesses.

Adam Price: What further action has been taken by the Government with regard to building the Llandeilo by-pass since the Deputy Minister for Climate Change's written statement in July this year?

Mark Drakeford: We are continuing to work on options to progress this scheme and are engaging with Carmarthenshire Council to agree the best mechanisms to deliver transport improvements on the A483 at Llandeilo as quickly as possible.Professor Andrew Potter’s work, which includes exploring the diversion of heavy goods vehicles from Llandeilo, is due to conclude shortly.

Natasha Asghar: What support does the Welsh Government offer businesses in South Wales East?

Mark Drakeford: Our Business Wales service provides individuals and entrepreneurs with access to a wide range of information, guidance and support, both financial and non-financial, to help set up new businesses.